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  1. Adenosine Triphosphate
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    Adenosine Triphosphate Old Scratch Contributor

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    Spanking

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Adenosine Triphosphate, Jan 10, 2015.

    Is it immoral for a child or teenager to physically resist being spanked? More specifically, is it immoral for them to use physical violence as a means of resistance?

    I'm actually very curious to see how people will answer this question.
     
  2. Wreybies
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    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

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    Immoral to resist? No. Futile, maybe, depending on how young a child, but not immoral. The last time my mom tried to raise a hand to me was when I was 10 and I stopped her by holding her hand. It was a deeply uncomfortable moment for reasons of cultural conditioning, but I don't think my action was immoral.

    I have a story where an 8-ish year old child stabs his father in the leg after his father beats his mother. I think of it as a "it's not right, but I understand" moment. The father in the story is himself well beyond the pale in his behavior. The child's behavior is meant to impress that sometimes the things we do may have much higher costs than we expect, so maybe best to check the sticker price first before driving her off the lot.
     
  3. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    Neither a child or a teenager has any moral obligation whatsoever to cooperate with being spanked. However, there are limits to self defense, and those limits would apply in this situation. If Mom slaps your hand, say, you don't get to chase her around with a baseball bat.
     
  4. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    1) Spanking teaches hitting.

    2) It's not needed to raise well behaved kids. There are more effective methods of childrearing.

    3) Sometimes it's harmful.

    Morality has nothing to do with it. And if you are referring to a child being morally required to obey parents, that's a dangerous philosophy. Consider the planes that have crashed because the co-pilot was so cowed by the authority of the pilot they didn't speak up when a problem was noted.

    You want your child to obey you because it makes sense, because you are consistent, because they trust you, and because you are fair.
     
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  5. Nicoel
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    Nicoel Contributing Member

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    I wasn't even aware this was a problem!
     
  6. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    One example (don't want to hijack the thread):

    Challenging authority is hard.
    It's not just the Korean culture and it's not just airline pilots.
     
  7. Nicoel
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    Nicoel Contributing Member

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    I was personally spanked as a very young child, and I think it is a very effective means of discipline. I think it should only be done when a child is young enough he/she can't understand morals and how things affect other people. They CAN however go through the mental process, "Painting walls = angry Mommy and ouch-y butt." Children are pretty darn selfish until they reach about 10/11 years old.

    However anyone, regardless of age, will want to resist having any physical "pain." (A little smack on the toosh doesn't hurt) So no, it's definitely not immoral especially as you get older. I personally don't believe in spanking teenagers (come on, really?) but if you tried to spank your 14 year old son and he resisted by stopping your blow or resisting being held down that's not immoral. Possibly rude, and disrespectful, but not immoral.

    But as someone else said, if he retaliated by running after the parent with a baseball bat or a metal pipe THAT'S not good. Unless the parent was extremely abusive. Then I say go for it. *coughs*
     
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  8. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    You cite all the old outdated, 'my parents spanked me and I'm OK' arguments.

    This is one of those debates that's doomed to fighting failures. People take it personal because either they spank or they were spanked and it insults them to be told there is a better way to raise a child and spanking isn't necessary. It should not insult anyone to find out there's a better way than they've been doing something.

    'There are no legit reasons to spank' is just too personally confrontational for people to hear.

    Being told a parent just needs better skills and spanking is used by those that lack skill insults people and they get pissed hearing it.

    But the bottom line is the research, not my opinion, not the fact I was never spanked and I never spanked my child, not the fact that there is no insult in learning a better way, look at the research.

    Bottom line: IT'S NOT NECESSARY!!!! Look at the research. Look at Sweden that outlawed all spanking. There are plenty of more effective parenting tools, simple to learn, break with your parents' outdated tradition.

    And no one is a bad person solely because they still spank. It's no more a sign of a bad parent than enforcing a 50s dress code norm made a parent bad in the 50s. That times change doesn't mean we were bad in the past. But there's no time like the present to break the bad habit of hitting kids.
     
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  9. Nicoel
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    Nicoel Contributing Member

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    To be completely honest, I've only read the section in my psychology textbook about spanking - that's the furthest I've ever gotten when it comes to research. I've just never felt the need or interest to look into it more.

    Why do you think that spanking is definitely not an effective parenting tool? There are plenty of people out there that have been spanked properly and turned out just fine from it. It's better than NO discipline, which is what a lot of anti-spanking parents implement.
     
  10. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Sorry, I am anticipating being disgusted by this discussion before the debate has taken place because I've argued this same thing a dozen times before and I do know what the research overwhelmingly confirms.

    There are plenty of effective methods of disciplining and teaching children of all ages that don't require hitting them.

    Research does not find spanking is always bad, but it is harmful often enough. Other methods work just as well and often they work better. So why hit them if it is completely unnecessary?


    It's a false dichotomy that no spanking means no discipline. Why do you think spanking is the only option for discipline?

    Positive Discipline

    Now if you want to compare no discipline you need to compare it to abusive discipline. Those are the two ends of the continuum and neither are comparable to effective parenting without spanking.
     
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  11. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    When you spank your child you are sending the message that violence, or at least the threat of violence is an appropriate method of conflict resolution.

    That is not a message that I want to send to my children.
     
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  12. thatoneauthor
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    thatoneauthor Member

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    Being immoral is subjective, but I do like to condone the act of self defense.
    SO don't spank me if i don't want it.
     
  13. Nicoel
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    Nicoel Contributing Member

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    To be fair, I've no intention to become nasty about this! I definitely have an open mind about the subject so you're not talking to a brick wall over here. Perhaps one made of Legos - but no bricks. ;)

    I don't mean that no spanking = no discipline. I mean spanking done in the right way is better than no discipline/reprimands AT ALL. Aka - letting their child run like a wild boar through stores and the home. I have seen this, with the parents making excuses of not wanting to upset their children. I also believe spanking, if done, should be done in the right way in the right age group.

    I also acknowledge that there are other effective means of discipline than spanking, some even perhaps more effective than spanking but I believe it IS an effective means.

    Abuse has it's own category, and it's just sad. :(
     
  14. Fan_Farming_Tastic
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    Fan_Farming_Tastic Member

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    Mmm. Interesting one.

    No, I don't feel it would be immoral to resist.

    Personally, I feel uneasy with any sort of discipline or teaching that requires some sort of physical dominance over someone else. In my mind, it sends a message that the more physically powerful person calls the shots. And, frankly, parents are only going to be able to physically dominate their children for a limited window of time in most cases.
     
  15. thatoneauthor
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    @Nicoel
    So if I hit you with a bat, but not hard enough to hurt you, that means I can hit you with a bat? But it's a form a discipline! So it must be okay!
    It is an effective means now because your child is now scared of you! Awh! What a wonderful bonding moment, you and your child can remember.
    Bullshit.
    If you want to discipline, give them nothing to rebel against, or a better thing to rebel against.
     
  16. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    But you are repeating the false dichotomy that is typically based on a misunderstanding of what no spanking/positive discipline is all about. It has nothing to do with lax discipline.

    If you ask my kid if he thinks I let him do whatever he wanted, he'll laugh at you.

    Which has exactly ZERO to do with what I'm talking about.

    You mentioned 'young'. Think about it, an adult can stop a toddler. We're smarter and bigger. Why on Earth would we need to hit the child in order to exert control?

    So you can be effective with or without hitting and you think hitting is an equally valid option?

    As does no discipline whatsoever.

    I appreciate your open mind. Please note I am not condemning parents who spank. I wish they would all take a second look but I'm not saying they are bad people because they haven't.
     
  17. matwoolf
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    matwoolf Contributing Member Contributor

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    Smack their little bottoms up the stairs. Give them a tick, a spicy edge that protects them out on the streets when they meet the genuine lunatics, who might think twice before attacking your kid.
     
  18. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    What? :confused: Why not just buy them a gun?
     
  19. matwoolf
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    matwoolf Contributing Member Contributor

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    Otherwise, I had much success with Spartan military type training with my 8 year old. He was beautiful, mothers would accuse me of feeding him steroids when it was all prunes and press-ups.
     
  20. matwoolf
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    matwoolf Contributing Member Contributor

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    Ah @GingerCoffee, you cheater, an addition to your post.

    A gun? Are you insane, more of a mindset, when surrounded by bad guys, you think,

    'there's gonna be a fight, and I think I'll start it.'

    You probably wouldn't understand being metropolitan and not a backwoodsman like myself.
     
  21. Nicoel
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    Nicoel Contributing Member

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    @GingerCoffee I've no idea how to quote in small pieces like that without doing a lot of deleting and copying n pasting. Your message is too long for me to quote! Haha

    I don't believe that positive discipline/no spanking = no discipline as I stated in the next sentence. I simply said spanking was better than Nothing At All. As in, zero effort made to correct bad behavior.

    Hitting the child isn't about "exerting control." You're right, we're much bigger, smarter, and faster. It's about getting through their under developed mind that what they're doing is bad.

    And yes, I do think spanking is a valid option if done correctly - and should always be the last resort.
    ----------
    Speaking of the guns earlier, I'm curious as to your viewpoint on them? Do you think average citizens should have access to them? What about violence during self defense?
     
  22. Kingtype
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    Kingtype Always writing or thinking things XD Staff Role Play Moderator Contributor

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    Longtime ago back when I was in kindergarten and there were these two twins in my class. They were real rowdy and hyper and what not but anyway they like put a hole in the wall somehow and so the teacher called their mom.

    So this woman comes tearing into the class and pulls down her son’s pants in front of us all and starts spanking his bare ass.

    We were all real scared but I was scared but also kinda fascinated......

    It was like....."Wow moms do that sort of thing?"

    This actually confused for a day or two when I was 5 about why some kids got spanked and some didn't.

    The only thing I can say about this issue is that its probably best not to spank from my view though when all is said and done. That kinda punishment might work for some kids and on the other hand it certainly mess some up probably.

    All depends on the person at the end of the day. But eh....its just seems kinda humiliating to spank your kid and not really necessary, .......just doesn't seem to work but hey I'm no genius on the topic.

    Also and this might sound a little twisted but I never got how people could spank their kids....like seriously. Maybe its just me but the image always looked a little ridiculous and at the end of the day ....its just not....just doesn't feel right to inflict pain (even if small) on a kid....most of all a kid you made.
     
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  23. Nicoel
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    Nicoel Contributing Member

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    Hitting anyone with a bat sounds a bit harsh; I think we can both agree with that. And no, I wouldn't say hitting me specifically in "discipline" sounds appropriate at all. I'm a legal adult by this point, and my brain is pretty well developed and I understand way more than the average 7 year old (I hope anyways).
    A kid isn't afraid of the parent because they were spanked, as long as it wasn't abusively and the parent also showed love to them.
    As for giving the kid something to "rebel against" - if he decides to run through the store and throw things off the shelves of course he's going to rebel anyone trying to stop him. He's also not going to listen or really understand a cute little sit down saying, "Now now sunny boy, you're not supposed to do that. It costs the store and me money, as well as making so much more work for them," and following it up with a lollipop. What kid gives a hoot about money? Or strangers feelings?

    ^No matter what, they're going to rebel against the person disciplining them.
     
  24. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    No need to explain why you are not answering every point in any post, let alone a long one.

    Look at the menu bar above the message you are posting. If you don't see a menu bar look below the post and click on "use rich text editor".

    To chop a post up all you need are opening and closing quote codes:

    Code:
    [QUOTE][/QUOTE]
    If you don't want to type that, highlight the text you want to quote and click on the little flag icon on the menu bar. Click on 'quote' and it will put the quote code around the highlighted text.

    But it isn't better than spanking if spanking is abusive. There's no sense beating this horse to death but essentially you are stacking the deck to make your argument.

    If you read the research it turns out spanking is a much less effective means of teaching kids than a multitude of other options.

    Heard it before, a million times. Who cares if it's a valid option if it's an unnecessary option?

    There are a few places I would consider carrying a gun: hiking alone in the wilderness, hiking in an area there had been bear attacks, camping in an isolated campground, and if I had an ex that was a threat, to name a few.

    The vast majority of the time, again this is what the evidence shows, the gun makes you more at risk, not less at risk.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2015
  25. ChickenFreak
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    ...I have no idea what this means. It seems to suggest that teaching a child that they should submit to physical abuse from those who are larger than them, will train them to resist physical abuse later. This logic isn't parsing for me.
     
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