1. Asaph Judea Wagner
    Offline

    Asaph Judea Wagner Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2012
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    1

    Strongest and Best Universe

    Discussion in 'Setting Development' started by Asaph Judea Wagner, Jan 29, 2013.

    What is the universe you can think of with strongest beings, on common people level, on hero level and on god/ascended level?

    On what criteria you judge a universe as being better than one another?

    On what criteria you judge a universe as to have stronger people?
     
  2. minstrel
    Online

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2010
    Messages:
    8,725
    Likes Received:
    4,821
    Location:
    Near Los Angeles
    What are you asking? How do you define "strongest"? Are you asking us to create a universe and define it for you?
     
  3. Cogito
    Offline

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    35,935
    Likes Received:
    2,043
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    I don't.
     
  4. Asaph Judea Wagner
    Offline

    Asaph Judea Wagner Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2012
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    1
    I'm asking you to define strongest and best universe.
     
  5. Cogito
    Offline

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    35,935
    Likes Received:
    2,043
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    Define it yourself. You're the writer. If you believe there is such a thing, present it as a story and sell us on it.

    That's what writers do.

    See the last line of my sig.
     
  6. minstrel
    Online

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2010
    Messages:
    8,725
    Likes Received:
    4,821
    Location:
    Near Los Angeles
    This doesn't answer my questions at all, so I'll just say the Marvel Universe is the strongest and best universe in the history of comic books.
     
  7. Lemex
    Offline

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,507
    Likes Received:
    3,151
    Location:
    Northeast England
    What genuinely worries me about this question is I don't even know where it came from, what line of thought could produce it. Could you please give us more information on what exactly you mean.
     
  8. Asaph Judea Wagner
    Offline

    Asaph Judea Wagner Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2012
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    1
    Well, what you say can beat the marvel universe?

    I want to create the strongest and best universe, because I know I can, but I want to do it with taste, so I'm trying to figure out what it needs to have.
     
  9. Cogito
    Offline

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    35,935
    Likes Received:
    2,043
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    Then you're on the right track. But this is something you need to ask yourself, not a bunch of strangers.
     
  10. Asaph Judea Wagner
    Offline

    Asaph Judea Wagner Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2012
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    1
    Well the fact is people can refute my claim. I just want to see other people's criteria. It should be like Yuri Buyka from Undisputed 3, most complete universe in the world (that's poetry).

    Oh and I'd like to ask, why do you think Marvel is Stronger than DC? With all the Vertigo characters and the 3600 Green Lanterns, Marvel doesn't stand a chance.
     
  11. minstrel
    Online

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2010
    Messages:
    8,725
    Likes Received:
    4,821
    Location:
    Near Los Angeles
    Well, I still don't know what you mean by "strongest and best universe," so I'm not sure how to help you. And I think Marvel is stronger than DC because I know almost nothing about DC - I've never read those comics. And Marvel has Galactus, who could eat the whole DC Universe and hardly burp. :D

    Seriously, what the heck do you mean by "strongest and best universe"?

    :confused:
     
  12. BallerGamer
    Offline

    BallerGamer Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2010
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    1
    The Bastard!! universe. I feel like it's sole creation was to create characters with over the head powers just for the sake of it. Some of those guys can destroy galaxies on a whim.
     
  13. BallerGamer
    Offline

    BallerGamer Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2010
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    1
    Think Dragonball Z and it'll all make sense.
     
  14. minstrel
    Online

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2010
    Messages:
    8,725
    Likes Received:
    4,821
    Location:
    Near Los Angeles
    I know little of this "Dragonball Z" of which you speak. I'm one of the older guys on this forum.
     
  15. Cogito
    Offline

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    35,935
    Likes Received:
    2,043
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    Chuckle. I've nearly a decade on you, and *I* know Dragonball Z. Bored by it, but I know it.
     
  16. minstrel
    Online

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2010
    Messages:
    8,725
    Likes Received:
    4,821
    Location:
    Near Los Angeles
    Well, I've HEARD of Dragonball Z, and I've seen some stills from the show of characters in what they call Super-Saiyan(?) form. But I've never seen a single episode and don't know the plot, or why it would be considered a "strongest and best universe."

    I guess I should just bow out of this thread. I don't know what the OP is talking about!
     
  17. Muff
    Offline

    Muff Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2012
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    2
    I think this pretty much sums it all up.

    To the OP: though I dabble in fantasy from time to time, I find the strongest and best universe to be the one we live, because it actually exists. To understand why, look no further than Saint Anselm:p.
     
  18. tcol4417
    Offline

    tcol4417 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    Sydney, AU
    I don't think you can accurately compare different worlds because of the different standards they're held to and it's really a silly exercise to try.

    Marvel's The Incredible Hulk never dies because of his plot convenient super-strength from gamma rays without real scientific explanation. Shot in the head? Survives. Nuked in the ocean? Survives. He won't die and the only explanation given is that he's the hulk. Ironically this makes him incredibly weak as a character because there's no tension: Hulk smash. That's all there is to him.

    Superman is little better because he uses the schoolyard cheat of saying "I have all powers and can do everything". Traditionally, Superman was faster than a single bullet and could leap tall buildings in a single bound, now he has laser vision, x-ray vision, heat vision, ice breath and all sorts of bull because hey, he's superman. His only weakness is kryptonite and you can always rest assured that there will be some convenient plot device to save him from it.

    I'd say Marvel is "stronger" than DC in both a creative and commercial sense only because their roster is more interesting. The Ultimates (or the Avengers) are more interesting than the Justice League. Storm is more interesting (and less sexist) than Wonder Woman, Jean Grey is more interesting than Hawk Girl. Iron man and Batman are worlds apart with regards to "strength" (Iron man = global space tech laser beam dude, batman = neat gadgets in a single city) though both are just as interesting.

    Marvel: Spiderman, daredevil, wolverine, thor, magneto, galactus, deadpool, the phoenix, the juggernaught, xavier, captain america, frost, nick fury and gambit.
    DC: The flash, green lantern, the joker... um... hm.

    Basically, there's a reason it's MARVEL vs. Capcom.

    I don't believe Capcom's universe has any ridiculously invincible characters, let's take a look:
    Street fighter, breath of fire, darkstalkers, devil may cry, resident evil, monster hunter, mega man (plus X, plus legends, plus battle network, plus zero, plus ZX), ghosts'n'goblins, rival schools, strider hiryu and vietful joe.

    To the best of my knowledge, none of these characters enjoy the protection of convenient plot macguffins. Within each individual reality you have characters that are comparitively powerful and that's what makes them cool. After all, trying to be the best in the universe is kind of childish.

    Akuma is rage made manifest, Morrigan is the queen of the demon world, protoman and his operator are world renowned virus-busters, Zero is the mythical "Legendary Red", strider hiryu KILLS ALL THE BAD GUYS FOREVER.

    Pyron is a God who engages in combat with mortals for amusement (as does Raiden from Mortal Combat, now that I think of it). So I guess Raiden and Pyron win against everyone because they're GODS? But that's a stupid reason, isn't it? It's just plain cheating.

    The tyrranids are a galactic plague of all-consuming monsters from beyond the universe, the chaos gods exist in another universe entirely, the eldar have witnessed the birth and death of countless galaxies (all from warhammer 40k), the Xel'naga (starcraft) built entire races, the forerunners (halo) built a weapon that could kill the universe, the Reapers (mass effect) reside in another reality and return on a regular basis to harvest all life in the universe before vanishing again.

    Characters from Shounen (Dragon Ball Z, Baki the Grappler, Naruto and Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann) always have x-1 until the right moment, then have x+1. It's a staple of the genre: Irrespective of the exact numbers involved, the formula goes good guy<bad guy, good guy + hard work + training + gumption + hot blooded manliness > bad guy. That's not to say that they're uninteresting - I'm a huge fan of TTGL for the way it epitomises the genre - but the ramping up of stakes and power is so predictable that it's weak in its own way.

    Link is the prophesised Hero of Time (among many other things), Ganondorf controls the Triforce of Power, Mewtwo is the most powerful pokemon in the world, Samus is a space-busting bounty hunter, Kratos is the God of War (he's a god, so he wins automatically, right?) and That Annoying Little Kid In The Playground Who Never Let Anyone Else Win ALWAYS won EVERYTHING.

    There is NO TASTEFUL WAY of making "the strongest universe". Period. Nobody likes that little jerk in the playground that gave himself an anti-everything shield and an anti-everything gun that never misses and has infinity plus one ammo. Even "Strongest characters" make weak protagonists because they can't ever lose. Ever. The whole point of making a character and story interesting is that they suffer limitations and that their success is not only not guaranteed but in some cases almost impossible.

    Hey, I've just made a universe: Everyone is immortal and invincible all the time and has no weakness. They can create and destroy other universes THAT ARE ALSO IMMORTAL AND INVINCIBLE because MY universe is immortal and invincible plus infinity. Everyone strong from every other universe also has a SUPER POWERED VERSION that lives in MY UNIVERSE that is a million billion trillion times COOLER and STRONGER than the original. They spend eternity reading comic books and doing rad stunts on BMX bikes and being super popular and cool and awesome all the time. There. Strongest universe. Nope.

    There are four kinds of "Strength" when you judge a "universe" or "franchise" to be more accurate.

    Canonical strength: The aggregate power of all components. The weakest of justifications because of the above. My world wins because they automatically win everything. Everyone else can fight over second place. Seriously though, arguing about this is no better than saying "My dad is better than your dad" - it's childish, stupid and utterly irrelevant.
    Commercial strength: How popular the universe is. I'd say that with the Ultimates 2, Iron Man 3, a string of Spiderman movies and everything else, Marvel has this one in the bag.
    Strength of depth: How rich, populated and realised a world is. Marvel wouldn't win because Stan Lee never really bothered with the minutia. Games Workshop and Wizards of the Coast would be my major contenders (Warhammer and D&D) with Bethesda and Bioware (Mass Effect and The Elder Scrolls) close behind.
    Strength of character: This one is entirely subjective and depends on how well the characters engage their audience. It is literally impossible to judge this one because it's impossible for everyone to judge every story that ever existed, let alone objectively. I've kept tabs on Marvel developments for almost my entire life without really caring about anyone but the big players and I stopped caring about Dragon Ball Z when I was still in high school, but I can name three stories aimed at CHILDREN that have successfully brought me to tears. Four. No, five. And it's highly unlikely that you've heard of or care about them.

    By all means, if you feel that your story can move even the most embittered of human beings, do so.
    If you have every tiny detail of an entire universe stored away, create it in a way that's engaging and immersive.
    If you think you have what it takes to break sales records globally, make it happen.
    But if you want to be respected as a writer, don't go out of your way to one-up everyone else with regards to pure power because it's petty and childish. There's a reason no-one deliberately tries.
     
  19. Xatron
    Offline

    Xatron Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2013
    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    6
    After reading this far and excluding tcol4417's post (with which i agree on 90% of the points), i believe the original question was less the kind "what universe has better properties/quality" and more "my action man beats your max steel". You can't say a universe is "the strongest", since the strongest one we all know is the one we live in. Stan Lee can demolish the entire marvel universe in a single page (sometimes came very close too). Akira Toriyama can equally easily destroy the DBZ universe as well.

    Judging one universe as "better" than the other is done on completely personal criteria and there are hardly any 2 people whose judgment will be completely the same.

    Judging the strength of the characters of a universe is just as complicated. To judge strength you must first define it. Is it physical strength? Political strength? Character strength? And how do you add strength? Everyone can only judge for themselves on such questions.
     
  20. Ian J.
    Offline

    Ian J. Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Messages:
    299
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    London, England
    IMHO, in terms of 'powers' (such as super heroes use) any universe anyone comes up with can always be beaten by someone else developing another one after it, as they can always arrange things to be able to destroy what has already been created. Therefore there is no such thing as a 'strongest universe'.
     
  21. Asaph Judea Wagner
    Offline

    Asaph Judea Wagner Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2012
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    1
    I agree this is kind of childish, but the story itself and the characters, at various ages, have childish charms.

    The real world is kind of too powerful, actually. In where I come from, there's a lot of stories about our country's struggle for Resurrection and independence which can bring you to shock or tears in a turn of a page. This is pretty much my "weakness", so I want to do the exact opposite.

    tcol, I think we should have fanboy battle in private messages because I can pretty much nullify every argument you gave. You should also check DC more to realize it. Why is there a DC MMO and not marvel yet (not with chibi or facebook at least) for example.

    I agree, Ian, that the newer universe has an advantage in preparation, but they are pretty powerful. I also like they fact that they are not pretty powerful compared to one another, at least not overall, but in various fields, so it is a fair game any time.
     
  22. tcol4417
    Offline

    tcol4417 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    Sydney, AU
    Bringing up the "real universe" is kind of besides the point, given that we're comparing the strength of fictitious worlds and the characters within them.

    I'm not sufficiently invested in either publishers to consider myself a fanboy: To answer your question, having an MMO based on your IP isn't some badge of prestige. I've played loads of MMOs - free to pay, purchase only and subscription only - and I can tell you that some really aren't that great. DC Online hasn't announced any numbers past 120,000, while Guild Wars clocks in at 2 million. GW doesn't even exist in any other medium and it's running rings around an all-stars product. I'm not saying that GW is more popular than DC, I'm just saying be mindful of the means by which you measure success.

    In fact, I only made one argument: It's redundant to argue over which universe has the strongest heroes in the sense of pure power, because pure power isn't what makes a universe strong. Again, I'll cite my infinity-plus-one example.

    Actually making any claims using the four measures of strength I gave are utterly beyond us because we lack the tools and the information. Neither of us, possibly nobody on earth has the authority to make any judgement on the matter.

    - There's no way of breaking down an entire roster's strength into comparable variables. Please don't try to put different God Modes into competition with each other: It's an embarrassment.
    - Comparative commercial success could only be proven if there was a massive gulf in comparative gross sales revenue, unit movement (and then you have to consider inventory attrition and shrinkage), the influence of external factors like release seasons, the inclusion of external draw factors like big name directors and special effects, whether you would divide the overall gross by the number of viable intellectual properties and how to define "viable" if so. Gaming publishers have been trying to push self-promoting numbers since the dawn of time and suffer exactly the same problems with misrepresentation and a lack of uniform standards. World of warcraft boasted over 10 million users with a potential gross revenue of 1.8 billion dollars per year This is a game that beat the highest grossing film of 2012 just by existing.
    - Depth is somewhat easier to quantify but still nebulous: There are more wiki articles pertaining to the Lord of the Rings franchise than World War II. That's not to say the more people who actually had names and families and life stories didn't participate in WWII, but it's just a lot easier to keep tabs on an entire army when they exist entirely at your pleasure. My vote went to those four because the former two are the founding pillars of interactive storytelling today (if you can think of a more exhaustive example of fabricating several different worlds from their greatest battles to the different flavours of ale available and how sassy the serving wenches are, let me know) while the latter are essentially carrying the torch (Bethesda have gone to a lot of trouble to flesh out the realm of Tamriel with practically every single NPC in the game uniquely named while 343 Studios are clearly working very hard to make their world more real).
    - The last one's subjective. Seriously.

    "Hey, what if Goku fought Superman?"
    "Superman would rewind time (because he can totally do that) and kill Goku as a baby."
    "Well what if Sherlock went up against Tony Stark?"
    "Sherlock would conveniently work out Tony Stark's one weakness a million years in advance and deflect the nuke at the last minute back in Tony's FACE."
    "Well, can we at least play rock, scissors, paper?"
    "Okay. Rock, scissors, GIANT DEATH LASER, I WIN! YOU LOSE! HAHAHAHAHA!"

    I've listened to people have exactly the same kind of discussion since grade school: Superman vs Goku, Inspector Gadget vs. Waldo, Jesus vs. Allah. All three are ridiculous for the same reasons.

    Don't. If you have any respect for the characters and the people who created them, just don't.
     
  23. haribol
    Offline

    haribol Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2011
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    2
    The idea that there is another universe with a people is thrilling and what is more thrilling is the imagination that they resemble earthlings.All I think about another universe is there could be entities or nonentities. My cerebrum is not wide enough or is not big enough to reach out to that domain and what I think or imagine does not go beyond this Milkiway. To conceive something beyond this universe is not a mental activity and I cannot link myself with any other entities and the only path there is if any is mysticism. Mysticism is something that is not mundane.
     
  24. Asaph Judea Wagner
    Offline

    Asaph Judea Wagner Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2012
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    1
    Tcol, you are going to far. If you want an example, DC rebooted all of its main continuity titles, which Marvel did the same a few months later. There is an entire forum at Comicvine for people to make these imaginary characters fight. I just wanted people to feel frightened from one hand but empowered on the other like in the manga Berserk (I highly recommend it, started when I was born, though I only began reading it a few years back). I want the feeling of Call of Cthulu with the Dragon Ball Z for example. Yeah, it's a pissing contest between monsters, but that's pretty much all these things are in the end.
     
  25. tcol4417
    Offline

    tcol4417 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    Sydney, AU
    Well, I apologise if I seemed a little hostile, but you originally expressed an intention of making a strongerest, bestest universest everest and do it tastefully, which is an alarming prospect.

    I just want to make it clear that fans embarrass themselves by taking such hypotheticals seriously - which some do with fanatical enthusiasm - and that writers have no business trying to one-up the authors of the past.
     

Share This Page