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  1. intorg
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    intorg New Member

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    Syrian Civil War

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by intorg, Dec 11, 2013.

    The ongoing civil war in Syria which was started on March,2011 can be candidate for one of the most brutal wars in world history. Started as peaceful demonstrations but in following days became a horrible war between Syrian Army and the uprising groups. The opposition was composed of civilians and also escaped officers from the army who did not want to involve in these violence against civilians.

    Additionally, Hezbollah also sent troops to fight together with Syrian Army against oppositon. Apart from the Hezbollah, Syrian Ba'ath Government and Army also got support from Iran, Russia and China. As known the last two are the members of the UN security council and have vote to effect the decisions. On the other hand, the opposition is supported by Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Turkey.

    The picture in Syria now seems like a rivalry between Alawite Shabiha militias, Syrian Army and Sunni opposition groups.

    As a result of this rivalry unfortunately many innocent people lose their lives and it seems if UN or NATO does not intervene many more will die until the end of this war. Russia and China continue to prevent an international intervention whereas Turkey aims to stop this civil war immediately with an international force.
     
  2. Thumpalumpacus
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    Thumpalumpacus Contributing Member

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    It's sad. Let us hope it ends soon.

    Let us Americans also stay out of it.
     
  3. Duchess-Yukine-Suoh
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    Duchess-Yukine-Suoh Girl #21 Contributor

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    Let's stay out of it in every way except for peace efforts, and humanitarian efforts i.e. free food and clean water, refugee camps, and temporary schools. We still need those.
     
  4. Gallowglass
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    One thing people tend to overlook is it's scale. We see on the news stories of hundreds of thousands dead and millions more refugees and apply that to a country the same size as the US or the UK. But Syria's only a nation of twenty million people - that's a big chunk of its population now killed, maimed, displaced, or impoverished. Nowhere near the biggest any country has ever suffered (remembering that nations have been entirely annihilated within our grandfather's living memory), but certainly on par with Afghanistan and Rwanda in the 1990s.

    This may sound harsh, but if it's the government providing this then they should at least secure assurances that the factions distributing this aid will not be actively anti-US should they take power. The US has been down that route before...
     
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  5. MLM
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    MLM Banned for trolling

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    One of the most disgusting things about this war is the vile propaganda being vomited out by every mainstream western media company. Literal garbage attempting to white-wash the ethnic cleansing being waged against innocent Alawites and Christians. They have white washed the so called "secular" opposition groups who from the beginning featured batallians named after historical Sunni warlords, a clear declaration against Shi'ites, and their sectarian violence from even before Al-Nusra, ISIS and other openly sectarian groups took over. One of my favorite ways they vilify Alawites is by always referring to them as "the sect of Assad" when they are mentioned. Do they persistently refer to white Christian Germans as "the sect of Hitler" or white Jewish Israelis as "the sect of Netanyahu" when reporting about violence against Germans and Israelis? Even now that all have been forced to admit that the FSA is not the main opposition force and that the SNC has no influence in Syria and never did they continue to insist that the opposition isn't primarily "extremist" and have been making very amusing distinctions between good Islamist terrorists and bad Islamist terrorists. I wonder if the good ones are the ones hanging bisected bodies from trees or the ones kidnapping nuns... They presented Obama's "evidence" of chemical attacks by the SAA without any skepticism whatsoever despite it being sketchy from the start and have completely swept the issue under the rug now that his "evidence" has been proven to have been as fabricated as Bush's lies about Iraqi WMDs. Even today, they intentionally play up every defection of a minor Syrian government office clerk as a major story but don't bother mentioning major government victories. I didn't see a single story in a western news site about the opening of roads from Aleppo to central Syria.

    Basically, at every single turn in this conflict the media has not only lied but spouted the exact opposite of the truth.
     
  6. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    The U.S. has already been involved enforcing 'no fly' zones against the Syrian Government from using aircraft to bomb the rebels and the refugees leaving the country.

    Once again this is a 'no-win' situation for the U.S. If they help the rebels against a brutal dictator who uses unyielding force against any opposition to his government, they are sticking their nose where it doesn't belong. This despite the fact that Russia and China have been giving support to Assad's government against the rebels. If the U.S. stays out of the conflict completely, they are cold-hearted hypocrites isn't helping Syrian rebels because there isn't enough in it for them in the long run, ie. oil.

    It's not just easy as sending food, supplies, and volunteers. When you just drop that stuff off the same things will happen as they did in Rwanda and other African countries. The men with the guns take it, and they tell the ones that really need it that it will go to the soldiers fighting for them that need it more. It's the way of the gun.
     
  7. MLM
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    MLM Banned for trolling

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    The "win" scenario for the US and other imperial powers is the same as it is in Iraq and Libya: the destruction of the nation and descent into anarchy. I think we tend to overestimate the "rationality" of every single thing the imperial powers do. They always have plans, but they aren't always strictly "good" plans from the perspective of meaningfully expanding their power (which is what they want but don't necessarily achieve).
     
  8. Lewdog
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    How is that a win? They use U.S. tax dollars, soldier's lives, and U.S. resources to help another country on the other side of the world while their own citizens are having their government benefits cut. I'll ask again, how is that a win? How many countries helped the U.S. gain its independence from Great Britain?
     
  9. MLM
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    It's a loss from the perspective of the American people and Syrian people and anyone concerned about human freedom or suffering. From the perspective of the powerful institutions in the US (democratic party, republican party, business groups, foreign relations council, war industry, finance industry, intelligence industry, energy industry, think tanks owned by those groups) it's a win because the chaotic situation gives them opportunities to make money through resource extraction (and as a corollary keep their jobs if they are involved in that stuff directly) and a chance install puppets who will follow western imperial dictated polices in devastated countries.

    Expending regular Americans' lives and prosperity isn't a big issue for them, as we have seen.
     
  10. Lewdog
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    That's not a win either, because all it does is create more enemies out of the ones who were on the opposite side, and out of the other countries that fear the U.S. might someday help opposition to their government to overthrow them. There is no stability in that.

    There is no win here when you look at the situation from all angles. The only win here is the ones that are working in secret to help the opposition like Russia and China have been doing for many years. Do you really think there is any other reason why China and Russia has an excess amount of money, enough in fact to keep loaning the U.S. with interest, while the U.S. wallows in national debt? It's not only because the U.S. government comes to the aid of so many countries, it's because they then give money and help to rebuild the infrastructure of these countries with money they had to borrow. That is instead of countries like China and Russia doing the right thing and helping these countries from the get go.
     
  11. MLM
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    Like I said, it's a mistake to always assume everything American Neocons and Neolibs do is totally rational and 100% in their own best interest, as is oft taken as a given by people with opposing ideologies. One good example of this is the tragi-comic faith in the power of technocratic governance and silver-bullet solutions within the Obama administration (which I personally believes emanates down through the administration and party directly from Obama himself). despite a string of catastrophic failures in everything from the extend and pretend finance policy to the Obamacare bungling to the loss of control in Libya.

    At this stage, I believe that the only way the opposition in Syria could win would be with direct military intervention in Syria, but Obama's silver bullet solution to the political issue of ginning up support for an attack fell apart when he failed to convince anyone that the SAA was responsible for the chemical attacks. Interestingly the reason he failed was because he mistakenly believed in the power of his technocratic spin doctors to make his fake evidence look like a slam dunk.
     
  12. Lewdog
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    If Assad didn't have chemical weapons, then why did he decide to turn them over to the U.N.? Where did he get them from in the first place? They have been illegal world wide for decades.

    I knew what happened in Libya within days of the Embassy attack but no one wanted to believe me. It was all 'conspiracy' talk. When all it was, was the same thing that's been going on for years, but the Obama administration has been sloppy and could screw up a wet dream if they had one.

    Fact is, whatever nomenclature you want to use, there is nothing the U.S. can do in this situation and come out a winner, in fact they are already a loser. As you mentioned Obama and his administration cherry-picked details out of reports to fit their needs verses looking at the total investigation, the angle of launch and decent of the rockets carrying the gas being one. Given the findings they could not have been fired from where was first reported.
     
  13. MLM
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    Assad did have chemical weapons and is turning them over, but my point was that the SAA did not carry about the chemical attacks. Also, having chemical weapons is not illegal and many countries keep stockpiles including the US. Using chemical weapons is illegal under international law. Syrian opposition groups were found to have sarin years ago by US intelligence and these groups have also received CIA training in the handling of chemical weapons.

    I was referring to the US led attack on Libya which destroyed the government and empowered renegade warlords to splinter the country.

    I think you are putting too much stock in the word "win". There are goals which different groups try to achieve and partial success and partial failure are the norm in a complex world like this (much more complicated than the rules in Risk!). My point has been that many people assume that power brokers in the US and other Imperial powers always make the best possible decisions in foreign relations in terms of achieving their own goals, but that that isn't true and they often take actions that are contrary to their own interests. That said, even catastrophic failure still has potential silver linings for some people. US support for Chechen terrorists as part of a plan to secure Caspian oil for the west without Russian mediation failed to achieve that goal but gifted the terrorists their own state for a few years and the American neocon politicians who engineered those policies ended up having very successful political careers. Win for some, lose for others.
     
  14. MLM
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    As an addendum, I have heard theories that splintering Libya for local warlords and terrorist organizations *was* the goal of the US attack as it gives a way of safe passage for north African based terrorists to make their way to the Mediterranean and get to Turkey, Egypt and elsewhere where they can then get to hotspots like Syria. I think this theory is a bit far fetched and that this turn of events was not planned.
     
  15. Lewdog
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    It is illegal to not only use, but have chemical weapons. I live in Kentucky where they have an Army Depot where they destroy the old U.S. stores. They have to do it slowly so they don't pollute the atmosphere too much. The Depot is Richmond, KY.

    Everyone is so big on blaming everything the U.S. does on oil. I don't understand it because as I pointed out in another thread, the U.S. is the third highest crude oil, and highest refined oil producer in the world. Only Russia and Saudi Arabia produce more crude oil, this despite China uses the most oil in the world. See the smog in Shanghai recently.
     
  16. Lewdog
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    Yes that is a far fetched idea given it is much easier to have government talks with one leader, rather than 10+ of them. What you are talking about, sounds a lot like Liberia, where an unreal type of war has been going on for decades. That's a war where Warlords will kill children and eat their fresh heart because they think it gives them power.
     
  17. MLM
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    Before September of this year, Syria was not bound under the modern Chemical Weapons Convention and was signed only to the older Geneva laws which outlawed only the use of chemical weapons, not their storage or production. While it is contrary to the spirit eliminating chemical weapons, the Syrian government was not violating international laws applicable to them at the time.

    America has a lot of oil, but the powers here seek to control the resource globally, thus, the patronage of totalitarian Arab monarchies in the gulf, the support for Chechen terrorists to wrest Caspian oil from Russian oversight, the long term campaign against Iran, who have oil and do not obey western-imperial policy, etc. America isn't "worse" than other powerful states and empires in any historical sense because of these actions, but these actions are what they are.
     
  18. Lewdog
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    Supposedly I read somewhere that Russia and Cuba have been doing some 'angle drilling' to steal oil from the U.S. but you don't read much about that. Of course in the article I read that other countries have been blaming the U.S. of doing the same thing for lots of years.

    I find it funny that if the U.S. does something wrong, it's okay for other countries to do the same thing and just blame everything on the U.S., yet if another country does something wrong and the U.S. does it too, the U.S. gets blamed for not being the better country and not following suit. Like I said before, the U.S. is always put in a 'no-win' situation.
     
  19. MLM
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    I can't speak for things you heard other people say. You should talk to "them" about how "they" "always" put the US in a "no-win" situation in their analysis of history and current events, but honestly it sounds like you are projecting some anxieties there. I feel I take a very scientific and historical perspective on events and can relate the facts of history without muddying the water. (I'm also aware of my historically emergent place in the world and how it has colored my perceptions and try to take that into account as much as possible). I have my opinions as well, but when I express them I make sure to include language that demonstrates that I'm expressing my personal opinions or my emotional reaction to objective things, like in my first post in this thread where I called the reporting of many news agencies "garbage" and "vile".
     
  20. Lewdog
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    It's not necessarily anxieties based on the perception of other's around the world towards the U.S., as it is that until those attitudes change the world isn't going to be as safe a place as it should be.

    I found one of the articles I read about drilling. It said that part of the reason that Saddam went into Kuwait, was that he believed Kuwait was doing angle drilling and stealing oil from their land.
     
  21. MLM
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    From what I've seen, a lot of the animus comes from the disconnect between America's national myths which are a major part of its national identity and its practical activities around the world. All states and their constituent elements pursue their own interests which are often at odds with the interests of others and resolve them based on power, not fairness. The US myth, however, is that the US is totally just and fair at all times and when counterexamples emerge and prove that the US is the same as any other country it is too deliciously hypocritical for people not to criticize.

    I don't think that everyone just assuming everyone and every organization from the United States is totally beneficent for no reason will automatically make the world safer any more than I think assuming that about any country would have that effect.
     
  22. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    I have to disagree with you on some of this. The U.S. and its citizens have received a bad rap for so long, that people from other countries of the world only see what they want to see, and that is often the bad.
     
  23. MLM
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    Like how you only see foreigners criticizing the US based on received doctrine without ever thinking critically and making their own conclusions?

    I think people around the world can think critically and make their own conclusions as well as we can. Are there any non-Americans here who care to weigh in?
     
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    Back to the war news: just read this

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=250751649



    This event combined with Gen Idriss fleeing to Qatar and then apparently to Turkey seems suspicious to me. Both of those countries are supporting various "radical" factions in the war who are ostensibly opposed to the FSA. I don't read Arabic but I've been told that the Arabic news has more details about Idriss's cousin negotiating the weapons transfer. AJA only gives you so much insight... Total speculation on my part at this time but my guess is that the US and others will be quietly transferring their material support from the FSA to the Islamic Front on the ground that they are a better bet and they aren't Al-Qaeda affiliated.
     
  25. Lewdog
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    Oh most definitely, nothing is what it seems. Money can buy information from almost anyone for the right price. Does it sound all too difficult to imagine some rebel that has been getting 3-4 hours of sleep for the past year while sleeping in a sand hole with bullets flying over his head, and eating bread and shoe leather to take the money? Not to me.
     
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