Don't envy us, T. We have much higher violent crime and gun violence rates than any other Western country. The debates over the 2nd Amendment get very heated and emotional.
I'm not sure if this should be made into its own topic. Could a mod perhaps divide the threads? Or if "regular" violence is close enough to terrorism, we can carry on here as well. Sorry, but I do envy you. Here's why: the statistics are unreliable when the context isn't taken into account: in the US, many states allow their citizens to carry firearms and hence, when violence occurs, even if the defender is attacked by a group of unarmed men and he, e.g. shoots one of them, thus saving himself from a wrongful assault, the incident is still listed as a gun-related incident of violent crime. That's why the statistics show such a high number of gun-related violence in the US as opposed to other countries. If, however, the statistics differentiated between violent incidents committed with illegally owned or illegally used guns and incidents where legally owned guns were used lawfully, the numbers would undoubtedly be very different. Also, Finland, for instance (or the UK, France, Australia, Sweden etc), has a very low number of gun-related violence, because guns are all but banned over here, but that, too, is only half of the truth: there's lots and lots of violence, be it unarmed or with weapons such as knives, baseball bats etc. but of course the statistics look very nice when you only take into account gun-related violent incidents. Also, what little gun-related violence there is in Finland (or any of the other countries with similar gun/self-defense laws), is mostly criminals shooting criminals or civilians because the laws that restrict gun ownership only restrict those who follow said laws; quite a few journalists have proven themselves just how easy it is to find a firearm through illegal means in various countries. So because of personal preferences and beliefs, I'd much rather live in the US and take my chances in an environment where guns are far more abundant. It's just a matter of personal beliefs/ideals/principles, and mine just seem to match the best with the laws of the US.
This is true, but rarely alleged or proven to be the case. Almost every day on the news, there's a story about gun violence, and it's rarely a justified or defensive use of a gun. The other thing is, it's much easier to actually kill someone with a gun than it is with a knife or bat or some other weapon. The same day we had our most recent school shooting, when 26 people were killed, there was a similar attack in China, where a person stabbed a similar number of people. But no one there died. Your viewpoint is commonly expressed over here, and at least in theory, has merit. Therein lies the rub. We've got WAY too many legally owned or purchased guns that are used unlawfully.
You lot do know, I hope, that there is less chance, statistically, of being killed in a terrorist attack or shooting than there is you suffering a fatal accident in your home as a result of a malfunctioning or everyday household appliance or tool, or a stepladder? And please don't let's bring guns into this. Terrorism is a totally different issue. If everyone had been armed in Boston the bombs would still have gone off. If guns were illegal in the US, the bomb in Boston would have gone off. It's the insidious and arbitary nature of terrorist attacks against ordinary civilians that makes terrorism so evil--yes, and inhumane. No true Muslim, no true Christian, no right feeling, loving member of the human race could ever, under any circumstances, condone the use of attacks like this for any end whatsoever.
Wow - didn't know there was such bigotry or illusionism amongst writers on this forum- they have to middle eastern? Three of four MEs were seen leaving a rucksack right where the bomb went off? Runners lost arms and legs? Some people must have seen different news footage than I did. I think one runner was injured and he had cramp... Ricin sent to Obama the day of a gun control hearing - the dickhead put his initials (KC) on the note and posted it from his local post office after leaving his fingerprints all over it ffs! Sounds just like this ammateur attempt at a bombing, 90 minutes after the winner went home and 60 minutes after all the dignatories left. And who said they must be anti-sports? ffs... And this argument about bravery is still going on? Give it a break - some people just like to mount their high horse out of some sense of emotional morality. Outside of 911 and a couple of homegrown bombers I really don't think civilian citizens of America know anything about terrorism. And about being afraid to go to school, the metro or the cinema, oh pulease... such paranoia - this is what they want, the politicians, they want you all afraid to leave your house, it takes away your civil liberties, an excuse to put cameras everywhere, make you arm yourself, buy guns. Obama didn't look into the camera so he did it? (yawn) There are 313 million people in America (that they know about) - of course there are going to be a few fruitcakes... this wasn't some military precise operation perpetrated by professionals. More like ricin posting idiots taking instruction from youtube videos - they will be caught and hopefully hung in the square! God bless those killed and maimed
That's not bigotry, that's statistics. Of course they don't have to be Middle Eastern, no-one's actually saying that. But it is extremely likely that they are, or, failing that, that they had a Middle Eastern mentor or mastermind. The nature of Islamic terrorism is such that is predominantly originates from the Middle East, and failing to recognise that does a great disservice to the fight against it. On this, however... ...I completely agree. People act like modern-day Islamic terrorism is some major threat that, if we don't throw all our resources and civic will against it, will overrun our way of life. It isn't.
erebh: I don't know what news channel you watch, but CNN and BBC World, just to name 2 channels you can get in France, have reported that some runners lost limbs and among the injuries (including those of spectators) there have been many that needed amputations. Among other things, they have also reported that a dark skinned man was caught on film and it appeared he had some connection to the bag that may have contained the first bomb. The analysing of Obama's body language is going on because people are trying to suss out how much he knows, and therefore, of course, what the investigators know. As for Americans not knowing about terriorism--well, the US had not experienced it at first hand in the same way many European countries had done before 9/11, but then your average Brit or Frenchman has not experienced it at first hand either.
scroll back mate - they have been blamed here and the poster made no apologies for it. Who said it was Islamic Terrorism? Unless I've missed something, they have no idea yet so to automatically blame "dark skinned, but not quite black people" (partial quote from earlier post) is a disservice to hundreds of millions of honest peace-loving muslims/islamists.
madhoca, we all saw the bomb exploding at the finish line, one guy fell over - that was it. We get CNN, BBC, Russia Today, Al Jazeera,France 24 and guess what, we also have the internet. All day on CNN they have reported but purposely not shown the suspect by request of the FBI who don't want it to affect their investigation. Everything else is speculation. Remember too, as soon as it happened they surrounded an arab guy in his hospital bed and straight off everyone said "Effin Arabs"! Average Brit hasn't experienced terror at first hand? Where do you think the IRA planted their "spectaculars"? Even Downing Street was hit. London looked like Beirut for years!
I'd say it's a disservice to assume that they are. They certainly *could* be, and I have no problem with certain Middle Eastern groups being on an initial list of suspects. But it's dangerous to implicate particular races or ethnicities, rather than groups that may be composed primarily of people of a certain ethnicity. You brought up statistics -- certainly the biggest terrorist attack here in the U.S. was from a Middle East based group, composed of people of that ethnicity. But as far as the number of attacks -- is there a statistic that shows the overwhelming majority are Islamic-based? I'm not certain that's true. Before 9/11, our biggest terrorist event was a home-grown nut. We have plenty of attacks that would be classified as terroristic from anti-abortion groups and some other fringe anti-government or racist groups. We really need to see what the evidence indicates. Right now it's all speculation, which isn't really all that helpful. A lot of Middle Easterners are fervently hoping that it was not a Middle Eastern perpetrator.
It's a fine line between apportioning blame and naming as a suspect. I'm not sure what side of it that poster was on here. Again, law of averages. I didn't technically say it was Islamic terrorism, I said that in reference to the Middle Easterner comment, but even so it's a safe assumption to make until proven otherwise. All the evidence we've acquired thus far points to it.
That's the point - so far there is no evidence - or at least they are keeping it secret. Being a victim of wrongful terrorist suspicion I am way too quick to stand up for minorities. Being Irish in the late 80s/early 90s in London, opened my eyes to a whole load of stuff that I am sure the muslim communities are feeling now.
erebh, the doctor at the hospital reported cases where there were amputations on the news I watched on BBC World yesterday evening. I don't get you--are you trying to say the reports of the injuries were exaggerated or something? What's wrong with you? As for who did it, it seems to be wide open to me. I'm sure there is a lot of information we can't be told at the moment, though.
Oh, and, sorry, but London has never been like Beirut, or even N Ireland. I speak as someone who has been in all those places and lived several years in two of them. Actually, even Lisburn in N Ireland wasn't bad all the time in the 1970s.
Yeah ok madhoc - 6 of Ireland's counties (divided and renamed Northern Ireland) were like Walton's Mountain - whatever and if Lisburn wasn't blown to pieces it's beacuse it was the heartland of Republicanism - I'm sure even Lebanon wasn't completely destroyed!
I wouldn't be so quick to jump to any conclusions on this either. Two more men have been cleared from suspicion: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/investigators_determine_marathon_Pu15seYXiNS1fIyqbRWlLK
I'm confused. Are you just saying the injuries were not among the runners? The bombs were centered near the spectators. But a number of runners had finished and joined the spectators. I'm not clear what you are disagreeing with here. [snipped all the stuff I agree with you on.] The ricin letters appear to be merely coincidental. My first thought on the bombs was a homegrown nut job. It wasn't until the images of two guys the police are focusing in on (just the first 3 images, none of the rest of them in that link) and the evidence there were images of at least one of them leaving a black bag at the scene of the blast then leaving, that I changed my mind. I paid no attention to the crap the bombs were an identifiable signature of any group. I feared the cops might be wrong suspecting the injured Saudi student. So if it's me the "no apologies" refers to, you're wrong. It's not bigotry, it's evidence: more than one person, and they look Middle Eastern and like Gallowglass says, there's also statistics. We've had our share of domestic terrorists. But all of the domestic 'groups' are white guys. It's just a fact. So like I said, one guy, wouldn't matter what ethnicity he appeared to be, it could be domestic or foreign. But a group, now ethnicity does carry evidentiary weight.
ALL my conclusions are tentative. If that turns out to be true, then I'll have to wait and see who they have images of leaving the bags at the sites. MSNBC is right this minute saying they are looking for these two. Heaven knows the news has been wrong again and again.
Ok fair enough, but if they were injured while spectating then they were unfortunate spectators. Hands up if I got that wrong. well if you are or were suspecting anyone because of the colour of their skin, or because one of the may have 'forgotten' his bag, what would you call it if not bigotry? not sure what you mean here; you were dissapointed it was saudi based bomb or you were glad it wasn't misguided racial profiling? (I honestly don't know what you meant) THere is no evidence - well none that mere onlookers know about so unless you have insider information then you are as much in the dark as the rest of us
Hear, hear... And another way to understand the thinking behind bombers is think of them almost like a poisoner--they get even, though stealthy means. Sure they do acts that may be "in your face" as far as shock value is concerned, but in reality, it's always behind your back. Cowardly.
They have found the black backpack that one of the pressure-cooker bombers was in--and it matches a backpack ( in several ways) of one of the guys that were photographed feet away from were it went off.
I would call it a mischaracterization of what I've posted. I feared our police, who make mistakes then railroad people, police who are sometimes real bigots, were focusing in on this guy because he fit the profile, a Saudi national, here on a student visa (many of the 911 terrorists were here on student visas) who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and ran from the scene. I didn't know the circumstances of him running away at the time. It was legit for the police to interview him. I'm not sure what they took from his apartment or whether that search was justified, they didn't have a warrant. They intimidated the roommate in an hours-long interview to let them search the apartment. That kind of profiling requires the highest professionalism and caution, something the police don't always exercise. I, as a speculating spectator, do not need to refrain from discussing the case until the jury is in. The police investigating the Saudi student is much different from having a video of someone actually placing a bag on the ground and leaving the scene. One was described as having a white cap, dark skin and that matches one of the two men in the image I linked to above. In addition, there is the later image where the backpack is gone. The FBI is now showing two different men. Interesting. The images are on TV but not up on the Net yet. Here's the video the FBI just released. The guy in the white cap is the one seen putting the bag by the second bomb site.
This issue is always a can of worms because of the emotions it stirs in people on both sides, and the situation is made even worse because a lot of the “research data” out there is biased, funded by either pro- or anti-gun lobbyists so the statistics are twisted to represent a desired outcome. That makes it kinda hard to find the truth, so it's up to each individual to figure it out. Now that I think about it, maybe it's best if we do leave this subject since it's off-topic, I suppose. I mean, in order for some of my arguments to make sense, I should start explaining about stuff like compulsory gun safety courses for all gun owners, regular courses and exams to test a gun owner's ability to handle firearms safely (organized by law enforcement) etc. etc, meaning posts longer than my arm, so... yeah, that's that for me. I agree. When governments ban guns, people use knives. When they ban knives, people use sticks and stones. Fists, feet, teeth, nails. Or if the individual about to commit the crime is too timid for a more... “hands-on” approach, they can always google instructions on how to make bombs out of over-the-counter household materials, leave it in a mall, and... yeah. Guns, knives, baseball bats, even household items that can be used to make bombs are not the problem: the problem is the people. For instance, we've had a few school shootings and at least one bombing (home-made bom) here in Finland. People were shocked and appalled, naturally. But... The school shootings and bombings are mere symptoms. Horrible incidents, yes, but still, just symptoms of a sick nation. There are thousands and thousands of young people with severe mental problems, ignorant, indifferent, or even abusive parents, and what do the politicians do to soothe the angry masses? They introduce new laws and restrictions even though they wouldn't have prevented any of the shootings (e.g. one restriction was that nobody under 18 can't purchase or own firearms even though all the school shooters were over 18 when they committed their crimes). But since such a move is always widely reported in the press, the sheeple are lulled back into a false sense of security, their favorite mode of existence. I know this sounds very paranoid, but I believe the politicians just use gun control issues, which always stir lots of emotions and discussion, as decoys (further emphasized by the yellow press that seeks to scandalize every incident to sell more issues) to draw attention from the real problems which would be more difficult (and far more expensive!) to remedy than introducing new laws and restrictions. For instance, schools are closed practically every year, teachers are fired, classes made larger, funds are diverted away from children's (and adults') mental care, so is it a surprise the kids aren't all right? The last mall shooting here in Finland was committed with illegally acquired/owned firearms and the guy who blew up a bomb (and himself) in a mall didn't use any restricted ingredients: the means to do harm will always, always be there for those who want to do harm so in order to fix the problem. For example, I've never sought to buy or even find illegal guns yet I've met a guy who could've gotten me one if I'd wanted him to. Likewise, one of Finland's biggest radio stations did an experiment on how difficult/easy it is to find and purchase illegal firearms. All it took was a few phone calls and they had an actual price list on various makes and models, all illegal, of course. Instead of focusing on treating symptoms, we need to address and fix the real reasons behind youth alienation, mental problems, poverty, unemployment, class divisions etc. The individualist in me fails to see anything bad in arming yourself, but to respond to the rest of the quoted text: I haven't stopped going to school, the metro, or the cinema, but I am more aware of my surroundings than I used to be. A guy on some other forum called it “cultivating a relaxed state of paranoia.” I think that sums it up pretty nicely. Kinda like when you're driving your car: you keep glancing into the rearview mirror, keeping an eye on whether there are other drivers/pedestrians etc. around you, and if there are, are they acting suspiciously (such as a car swerving from side to side), in which case you either try to avoid the suspicious individual or call the cops or both. Thrice, I think, I have started following a drunk driver while informing the cops about the situation. I don't mean to be a dick, but DUI is one of my pet peeves because you're not just endangering yourself. Why should I suddenly start ignoring my surroundings when I step out of my car? If I do remain aware, am I being overly paranoid, doing just what terrorists want?
