The Ancient History Thread

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by jonathan hernandez13, Aug 21, 2009.

  1. Lydia

    Lydia Contributor Contributor

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    intruding... :p
    If anyone can tell me what my name actually means, I'll give them a cookie.
    (Yes, it's kind of history)
     
  2. jonathan hernandez13

    jonathan hernandez13 Contributor Contributor

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    I think that you are referring to the ancient Anatolian Kingdom of Lydia, at one time called Asia Minor, modern day Turkey. It was inhabited since the Bronze age but colonized by Greeks and eventually became both part of the Mithridatic Pontic Kingdom and later an acquisition of the Romans.


    Am I right, huh, huh?

    Do I get the cookie?!

    nom nom nom

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Lydia

    Lydia Contributor Contributor

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    Not enough! I know it came from that, but, after who was Lydia named? And, what does his name mean?

    If you can answer that, you'll get the cookie. ;)
     
  4. jonathan hernandez13

    jonathan hernandez13 Contributor Contributor

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    Lydia of Thyatira was the first recorded convert to Christianity in Europe.

    The Acts of the Apostles describes her as follows:

    One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple, who was a worshipper of God. The Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul. And when she was baptized, with her household, she besought us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us. (16:14-15 RSV)
    The name, "Lydia", meaning "the Lydian woman", by which she was known indicates that she was from Lydia in Asia Minor. She was evidently a well-to-do agent of a purple-dye firm of Thyatira, a city southeast of Pergamum and approximately 40 miles inland, across the Aegean Sea from Athens. Lydia insisted on giving hospitality to Saint Paul and his companions in Philippi. They stayed with her until their departure, through Amphipolis and Apollonia, to Thessalonica (Acts 16:40-17:1). In the liturgical calendar of saints of the Latin Rite Catholic Church in Greece she is called "Lydia of Philippi". Her feast is on 3 August. She is also commemorated with Dorcas and Phoebe on January 27 in the Calendar of Saints of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and on October 25 in the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod.

    You must be referring to her then:p

    I must make a correction to a post I made earlier, Lydia was never part of the Pontic Kingdom, as far as I can tell:(
     
  5. Lavarian

    Lavarian Contributor Contributor

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    Give this man a cookie!
     
  6. Lydia

    Lydia Contributor Contributor

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    What I actually mean was this: If Lydia means "The Lydian woman", as in, that she's a woman from 'Lydia', Lydia must have been called that way because of something else.
    Which is, in this case, king Lydus. Lydia was named after him after his reign.
    But, I've never found out what Lydus comes from.
    Why couldn't my name have a simpler meaning? :(
     
  7. Lydia

    Lydia Contributor Contributor

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    Forget it. Cookies all mine!
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. jonathan hernandez13

    jonathan hernandez13 Contributor Contributor

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    "Lydus was the third king of Maeonia in succession to his father Atys. He was the third and last king of the Atyad dynasty. According to Herodotus, Maeonia became known as Lydia after Lydus's reign."

    Fair enough, I did not know that, but your name is very pretty though:redface:
     
  9. Lydia

    Lydia Contributor Contributor

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    *jumps up and down*
    I wanna know what it means!!!

    *calms down*
    Okay. But you can have a cookie anyway. :) *hands John cookie*
    It's chocolate chip.
     
  10. jonathan hernandez13

    jonathan hernandez13 Contributor Contributor

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    Asside from the name being derived from a King, who might have even been semi-mythical, I cant tell you any more than the Greek historian Herodotus could. The Lydians spoke a language that hasnt been spoken in millenia, Im sorry:(

    thanks for the cookie though! I wont eat it, Ill keep it...

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Lydia

    Lydia Contributor Contributor

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    Ah, I see you've earned you cookies... ;)
    Thanks anyway, I didn't figure anyone could really tell me what it meant, but it was worth the shot. :)
     
  12. jonathan hernandez13

    jonathan hernandez13 Contributor Contributor

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    As for whether the Makedonians were Greek

    At one time the Greek city-states considered the Makedonian Kingdom little more than barbarians and even denied them the right to perform in the Olympics.

    They spoke a derivation of the Greek language though, and had Greek customs, gods, etc.

    If you ask me, they were Makedonians because although they were Greekish people they had an identity in theor Kingdom seperate from the city states of the lower mainland or the islands.

    And, curiously, it was not until after they got put in their place by Philip and his son Alexander that they were considered "civilized" Greeks.



    My issue is that alot of people who were NOT Greek were and still are called Greeks.


    The Amazons are often depicted as Greek women, even though most sources site them as coming from Asia.

    The Minoans are called Greek even though they settled Crete before the mass migration to the Greek mainland even occurred.

    As mentioned before, the Lydians were called Greek even though the land was settled and civilized before it being colonized.


    It is terribly tempting to oversimplify when it comes to history, but it is a risky path indeed and tends to often mislead.

    For example, Napolean was not French, he was Corsican of Italian descent.

    Cleopatra VI was not Egyptian, she was ethnically Makedonian.

    c'est la vie:rolleyes:
     
  13. Lydia

    Lydia Contributor Contributor

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    I suppose they're lazy and chose the easy way. Or maybe they thought people'd get confused if they'd explain it all right. :rolleyes:
    And do you know why Napoleon is called Napoleon and not Bonaparte? Which would be more logical if you'd compare to some other important historical figures.
     
  14. Shadow Dragon

    Shadow Dragon Contributor Contributor

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    That's actually a pretty interesting point. Very few well known historical people are refered to by their first name. People either call them buy their last name or their first/middle name and last name. For instance, if someone was talking about Gaius Julius Caesar, they would usually call him Caesar or Julius Caesar. Not just Gaius or Julius. General the only people that are known by their first name is because some special title is added to it; such as Alexander the Great, Joan of Arc. Catherine the Great, and William the Conquerer.
     
  15. jonathan hernandez13

    jonathan hernandez13 Contributor Contributor

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    Well the tradition of using surnames didnt exist in the ancient world until the Romans adopted the Etruscan of three names (given, clan, heridetary). Surnames appeared during the Middle Ages.

    Alexander III, otherwise known as Alexander the Great, was probably known as Alexandros son of Philip(philos+hippos=horse lover). "The Great" is an Asian title bestowed on Great Kings, and Alexander wasnt called that until after he overthrew the Achamenid Persian empire (hence Cyrus the Great, Sargon the Great, etc. Justinian the Great, a Byzantine many centuries after Alexander, was just one of many imitators). Interestingly, the Persians, who spoke an Indo-European language, inherited the title from the Sanskrit "Maharajah", or "great king".

    But yes, history often remebers people by their first names, even if they were the fourth or fifth person with that name:rolleyes: "Cleopatra" was actuallly the sixth woman to bear the name.


    Here's a topic, were the Byzantines Romans or just Greeks with inflated egos?

    I couldnt resist, check out these, cat armor? So cute!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Good luck trying to get your cat to wear those! Stand still kitty!
     
  16. jonathan hernandez13

    jonathan hernandez13 Contributor Contributor

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Theyre actually very pretty...
     
  17. Shadow Dragon

    Shadow Dragon Contributor Contributor

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    I would consider the Byzantines to be Romans. For all intents and purposes, the Byzantine Empire was just the continuation of the Eastern Roman Empire after the Western part collapses, and it's emperors were of the same bloodline as the Western Roman emperors and the emperors of the unified Roman empire. As such, I usually consider the fall of Constantinople at the hands of the Turks to be the true end of the Roman Empire.
     
  18. Gallowglass

    Gallowglass Contributor Contributor

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    It's not Asian. The earliest known 'the great' in Gaelic history is Fearghus, the founder of Dal Riada, in the 500s. I think that the Welsh have a few that are older, though I'm not sure.

    Most languages in Europe are Indo-European (there's only one famous exception, and that's Basque - others are Saami and Finnish), and most have strong links to Sanskrit, especially Celtic and Iranian languages. Persian back then would have had words from both, and Persian today still has words from the latter.
     
  19. jonathan hernandez13

    jonathan hernandez13 Contributor Contributor

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    I must admit I didnt know about the Gaelic "great" titles, but I think Sargon was earlier than 2000 BC:(
     
  20. Gallowglass

    Gallowglass Contributor Contributor

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    There's a few others, such as Somerled (and most of his descendants, according to the stories).

    2000BC is within the range of Proto-Indo-European languages, and as those languages originated in the Caucasus, it still doesn't mean that that specific title is of any real nationality other than an obscure designation that has been irrelevant for ten thousand years ;)

    Apparently there are gods and goddesses in both European and Hindu pantheon, such as Danu, that some have claimed are thirty thousand years old, though, so people may need to rethink that ;)
     
  21. jonathan hernandez13

    jonathan hernandez13 Contributor Contributor

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    hmmm
     
  22. Gallowglass

    Gallowglass Contributor Contributor

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    Basically the genealogists and linguists don't know :(

    This is the best page on Danu that I can find, that isn't just a load of text, or in Gaelic.
     
  23. jonathan hernandez13

    jonathan hernandez13 Contributor Contributor

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    I already knew about Danu, I just never heard that she was 30,000 years old or associated in any way with any other deities:confused:
     
  24. Gallowglass

    Gallowglass Contributor Contributor

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    She's not associated with other deities, they're the same. The thirty thousand years old thing is the oldest estimate, based on the first migrations from the Caucasus into India and Europe (as her name is part of rivers in Russia, it can't have been the migrations that actually reached the areas the Celts or Hindus inhabit today). And the fact that she is a mother-goddess, the most basic human image possible, is another indication of her age in relation to other religions.

    If it's true, she's amongst the oldest gods and goddesses in the world. The others each come from the same area, although now are mostly believed to be minor deities in Hinduism (some have said that they're also the mythical creatures of the Hebrides, but I don't see the similarities there).
     
  25. Gallowglass

    Gallowglass Contributor Contributor

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    Seeing as everyone else has found a lot of text on ancient empires, I feel as if I'm letting the Kingdom of the Hebrides fade into obscurity. It's a good thing I can type quickly :D

    The Lordship of the Isles

    Name: Lordship of the Isles
    Ruler: King of the Hebrides, King of Mann, King of Antrim, King of Kintyre, High Prince of the Seed of Conn, Macdonald, Lord of the Isles
    Population: 300,000
    Area: 25,000 square kilometers

    Capital: Eilean na Comhairle, Loch Finlaggan, Islay
    Official Languages: Highland Gaelic, Norse, Irish
    Regional Languages: Manx, Scots, Orcadian
    Establishment: 1164 by Somerled, then re-established in 1263 by Aonghas MacDomhnuill and King Alexander III of Scotland

    The Lordship of the Isles was a medieval Gaelic state that existed on Scotland's western seaboard and coastal areas of northern and eastern Ireland. It held significant territories, such as Ross and Antrim, on the mainland of Scotland and Ireland, although its capital was on Islay, in the Hebrides.

    Although the title Lord of the Isles was granted to Aonghas MacDomhnuill by Scotland, he already held the title King of the Hebrides. Their kingdom would have its own language, religion, laws, education system, and full control over its foreign policy. Its leaders would also involve themselves in Scottish affairs - they obtained lands in the Borders for support that never arrived, and even had a Macdonald with the authority to change the Scottish legal system.

    Politics

    The Council of the Isles was unique in Europe, with many features that we would now recognise as the separation of church and state, and the complete lack of power held by any single religion and ethnicity. It had an equal representation of each level of power (there was no class system), and the ability to take away the power of the Lord of the Isles.

    There were four thanes, who were often the most powerful clan chiefs, four armins, who were chiefs of smaller clans, four tacksmen, who held clachans in different regions, and four retainers of Macdonald, including the commander of the army. It was possible for other retainers to be present at important discussions, as well as the judges for each island or administrative district who would ensure that Macdonald was aware of any local problems. It was through these judges that anyone could contribute to the decisions that the Council of the Isles made.

    The administration of small areas was left to tacksmen, who'd have been given the land by a local clan chief. There would either be a clachan on the land for them to manage, or the resources required to build one would be provided by Eilean na Comhairle. The tacksmen had the responsibility of managing the clachan, and sorting out any local disputes that were not important enough for the local judge. They managed the food supplies of the clachan, and also rallied the clansmen in times of war.

    Clan chiefs would have controlled the tacksmen who they had given lands to, even if the tacksman had been granted lands from another clan, and many would have been present at Eilean na Comhairle. They had to speak with the local judges to make sure that their tacksmen were efficient, and to debate about any political, economic, or military problems in their lands.

    There were also several districts that had their own government, which was largely independent of that of the Lordship of the Isles. The most famous example is St Kilda, which was ruled by a queen, known as the Amazon, although it was not unique. There were other islands, most of them around Ross, that had their own queen.

    Religion

    The majority of the population was Roman Catholic, although there were significant minorities who worshipped pagan gods and goddesses. The descendants of Viking raiders who settled in the Hebrides were the largest of these, although there were Irish and Gaelic-Pictish pantheons worshipped in the Lordship.

    The Roman Catholic population would have included some pagan elements in their worship; they often practiced animal sacrifice after Mass, and they also kept their beliefs in pagan mythology and festivals. Some Christian saints were worshipped as pagan gods, such as Seonaidh, and some pagan gods were worshipped as Christian saints. Both Christianised paganism and paganised Christianity can both be used to describe the religion.

    There was not a single official religion of the Lordship of the Isles, and religion had no power in politics, although the Lordship of the Isles included Iona, the spiritual capital of Celtic Christianity, and the oldest monasteries in the British Isles.

    Women

    Women held equal status, if not equal rights, with men. The Christian laws that had made them subservient to men in Ireland were not practiced in the Lordship; women of any level of power could own property, and keep it if she married, and those not descended from a family with political power could inherit the property of her father (those who were descended from a family with political power would be given gifts by her brothers).

    Women could keep their patronymic if they married, and there was legislation to prevent forced marriages between powerful families, that was known as handfasting. A couple had to be together for a year before they married; if a child was expected, and there was no complaints, then the marriage would be made official. If one of them objected, then they would be free to marry other people.

    They had equal protection from the law, could be witnesses in court, and had access to education.
     

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