The test is really not something that you can "agree" with or something that needs to "work". I feel that you're fundamentally misunderstanding the test.
I didn't say a setting must be egalitarian for the focus of the story to be, I said that, if a setting had no signs of sexism, and then a character started to complaining about sexism, despite the reader having seen no sign, then it can come across as preachy. The part on slavery I don't understand. I didn't say a novel set in that time period had to treat the slaves as sub-human. And I think this point is where we diverge on belief, I see how characters within the novel treat each other, and how the author treats characters, as different. A novel set in that period can and should have the characters treat slaves a certain way, however, the author, either through word choice or length of time focused on them, should show them as human.
You wouldn't pitch a mystery to an SF agent. You're missing my point. OK, so I'm an agent who publishes fantasy novels. You come to me with a perfect pitch with your fantasy novel, and I say "Great, does it pass the Bechdel test?" and your answer is, "well, it's about a band of elves who are shoved out of their home in the forest. They pray to their elfin god who sends an angel to guide them to safety across the mountains to their new home. She's beautiful and magical and helps them fight off a number of attackers ..." and I say, "but she's the only female?" and you say "yes ..." and before you can tell me anything else, I've slid your manuscript into the trash and moved on to the next offering.
Wait. What? Did I miss a sub-thread here? I read back through this chain and I don't see where the expectation that anyone should be complaining about sexism came up. Can you provide some context? Are you interpreting some post somewhere as expecting that characters should be complaining about sexism?
The test is not set in stone. it's not in the rule book, it's not something authors have to follow. I just don't understand why anyone would (movie buffs or agents) rate a movie or manuscript based on its principals. But they do.
No, and you wouldn't pitch a story without substantial female representation to an agency that says that they want substantial female representation. Why is it OK to reject stories that aren't SF, or aren't historical, or aren't romances, or aren't thrillers, but it's absolutely not OK to reject stories that don't have a strong female focus? Why is that apparently the ONE focus that an agent can never, ever have?
I love that agents are demanding this stuff. I came across one from a top notch agency saying she didn't want any romance with alpha-hole males (in nicer words). I mentioned it in my query, she requested the full because of that, and very nearly represented me.
They don't "rate" it based on that, any more than you "rate" a work based on whether it's science fiction. "Rate" is not a relevant word here.
Well, yeah, I agree, it would be absurd... but I don't see what this has to do with the Bechdel test? The test doesn't say that the two women have to talk about sexism with each other. I mean, it would be great if they didn't... they should be talking about something plot-related, I'd think. I agree. I'm not sure where we're crossing wires, here... so the author would treat the slaves with respect, even if the other characters don't treat the slaves with respect. That's kind of the idea behind the test - is the author showing the value of the female characters, regardless of how the other characters act.
I put "Not to mention if a book contained people criticizing something without it being relevant to the people within, then it can come across as the author speaking instead of the characters." To which I interpreted this part to be a reply "I don't think the society being portrayed has to be egalitarian in order for the focus of the story to be egalitarian." I might have misread it though, and it could be reply to another section.
It's not just about the strong female focus! There are three parts: must have strong female focus who must talk to another female about anything EXCEPT men. You have to satisfy all three elements.
I think that you misunderstood. Joe the Noble Landowner may think that Jane the Serf is a meaningless little speck in the landscape, less important than the smallest of his best hound's newest litter of pups. The author can still treat Jane the Serf as a meaningful, important character. The author can care about Jane's wishes and dreams and struggles and her quest to grow a fig tree. That doesn't mean that Jane or anyone else in the story needs to speak even one word about sexism or classism or the feudal system or anything else.
Do you ever get the feeling that we're on the same side, just we use different arguments that each other misinterpret and make us think we're having an debate?
It's the agent's call. There are agents who only represent authors of colour, and agents who only represent LGBTQ authors. That's their particular interest, it's what they feel passionate about, it's the area in which they have the best connections for making sales, etc. I fully support their right to make that decision, even though it's WAY more discriminatory for them to make choices based on who an author is rather than what an author has written. Agents aren't a monolith. They have their own preferences and it's in the best interest of an author to find an agent whose preferences coincide with what the author writes.
I think you're kinda blurring two tests together? The Bechdel test just requires a single conversation over the course of the entire book - two women, talking to each other, not about a man. The "strong female focus" part isn't from Bechdel, at least not in its original incarnation.
I agree. It just seems an awful waste of what is potentially, a fantastic story, which is tipped in the trash before it's even got a look at, simply because it only has one female role who doesn't get to talk to another female about anything other than men. I do think that if agents are going to us the test, they should advertise that along with their other preferences, such as genre, length, fiction or non-fiction etc.
Actually, no, you don't even have to have a strong female focus. You have to have two female characters who have that conversation. Die Hard passes the test, and it certainly doesn't have a strong female focus. It's not some horrible, awful, difficult-to-achieve test. It's a tiny little scrap of a minimum that almost any work that has ANY female focus is likely to achieve. If a work doesn't pass the test, then there's a fair chance that it doesn't have much female focus. It certainly might, but I can see an agency might save themselves some time by just assuming that the odds are against those manuscripts.
An agent may tip a manuscript in the trash for failing to follow formatting standards. And the original post was about an agent that DID advertise the use of the test, right?
You have even use indirect speech. Having your main character walk past a group of women discussing their daughters technically counts.
But maybe it was a great mystery story that I sent to the SF agent, too. It's not a reflection of the quality of the story, it's just not a good match for that agent.
do apologize From wiki The rules now known as the Bechdel test first appeared in 1985 in Alison Bechdel's comic strip Dykes To Watch Out For. In a strip titled "The Rule", two women, who resemble the future characters Mo and Ginger,[9] discuss seeing a film and the black woman explains that she only goes to a movie if it satisfies the following requirements: The movie has to have at least two women in it, who talk to each other, about something besides a man.
