Fulfill? Does a work fulfill the requirements of the Bechdel test? Does an apple fulfill the requirements to be considered organic by Oregon Tilth? Other works aren't bad. Other apples aren't bad. I consider being organic a desirable characteristic in an apple, all else being equal. I consider passing the Bechdel test to be a desirable characteristic in a movie or book, all else being equal. But a book may have a theme that makes no sense with female characters. An apple may be a glorious creation that came from somewhere far from Oregon Tilth's evaluation area.
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing... But - yeah. There's no mention of a strong female focus. I think maybe that's more from the Mako Mori thing?
I confused two women with strong female character - must have picked the strong bit up from another post
As BayView mentions, the test was *never* meant by its creator to test specific films, books, or whatever. It was just a "Hey, isn't it weird that not many movies pass this test", one-off leading into a joke about Alien passing 'cause they talk about the gender-ambiguous monster. Also, it was originally mentioned just for films: Since books and TV have much longer plots and runtimes, they almost inevitably pass eventually. Movies, with only 90 minutes or so of runtime, are far more likely to fail. Also, until I decided to add half a dozen new characters and an entirely new plot, my book was 20 chapters in and hadn't yet passed the *reverse* Bechdel test. My POV character is a girl, and any conversation is either with her or overheard and about her. Unless you've got an ensemble cast, you're just not going to be likely to pass if your main character is the wrong gender.
Yeah, most of my books don't pass - I tend to write male MCs, close third POV. Not much room for two women to have a conversation that isn't about a man, unless my POV character is just sitting there passively listening, which isn't going to be great storytelling most of the time. But when I write books with female MCs, I make sure there are interesting supporting female characters. Not as a deliberate nod to the test, just because that's the kind of stuff I like to read. ETA: And even when I write male MCs I try to have interesting supporting female characters. I think my books satisfy my feminist principles even without satisfying the Bechdel test. But I wouldn't send them to an agent who thought the test was important.
Right, and you wouldn't send a book that doesn't have a strong female representation in the cast, to an agent that wants books that have a strong female representation in the cast. I'm really not seeing the distinction here. Maybe you're getting caught up in the question of books/movies that have a strong female character in a male world, and the fact that they wouldn't pass the test. Some of those books/movies are very fine books/movies. But there's nothing inherently wrong with wanting a world that is both male and female. If an agent wants only books that have a world that is both male and female--or even a world that definitely has female in it, and maybe they don't much care if it has male--that agent has that right.
So are you also opposed to organic certification? After all, there's good fruit that isn't organic, so let's maintain a firm state of ignorance about whether fruit is organic or not?
since when did we become a forum about food? Incidentally, I buy free range organic eggs, and corn fed chicken when I can afford it.
Are you unable to see the analogy? Just because "organic" isn't the one, only, final, overriding fact about food, doesn't mean that it isn't a useful fact. Just because "passes Bechdel" isn't the one, only, final, overriding fact about fiction, doesn't mean that it isn't a useful fact. There are plenty of reasons to eat non-organic food. It doesn't mean that we don't want to know which food is organic. There are plenty of reasons to make vehicles that don't pass miles-per-gallon requirements. It doesn't mean that we don't want to know which ones do and which ones don't. There are plenty of reasons to grow flour corn instead of sweet corn. It doesn't mean that we don't want to know which is which. There are plenty of reasons to grow white-seeded beans (which tend to be less easy to get started because they're less vigorous) rather than brown-seeded beans. It doesn't mean that we don't want to know which is which. It makes no sense to say that I don't "agree" with the "brown-seeded bean test". The bean is brown. You don't have to say that brown is better, before you're able to be aware of the fact that the bean is brown. You don't have to say that more fuel efficiency is better, to be aware of a fuel efficiency number. I personally prefer organic produce. I want a car with good fuel efficiency, but I don't drive one of those itty bitty ones. I'm growing parch corn rather than sweet corn. I grow white-seeded beans though I'm seeking a brown-seeded bush bean that tastes as good as Blue Lake. And, all else being equal, I would prefer a work of fiction to "naturally" pass the Bechdel test, because if it naturally passes the test, the author is probably including a lot of female in her world. The Bechdel test is a useful fact for me, just as an organic certification is a useful fact for me. Are you saying I'm not allowed to find it useful?
No. Organic is a choice. Yes, it can be a useful choice but a choice none the less. You have a choice to have the brown beans or the white beans, the car or the the walk, an A-rated washer or the launderette. These are all choices that any consumer (or farmer/manufacturer) can make. And to a certain extent, agents are the same, they have their own choices to make. But just like organic certification and fuel efficiency doesn't guarantee better or tastier, the Bechdel test doesn't guarantee a better or more sellable story/movie. I actually see it more of a restriction, like a food allergy or intolerance.
As a choice, there's nothing to stop me taste testing both organic and non organic to find which one I enjoy the taste of the most. With the Bechdel test, the story won't even be tasted, it will be thrown out simply on whether or not it fulfills the requirements. Hence me likening it to an allergy or intolerance.
With the test, the agent has an intolerance to anything which does not contain two female characters, who have a conversation, about anything except men.
I put no value on organic vs non-organic food and consider it a waste of money. I'd never go into a shop that only sold organic food. But that doesn't mean it's wrong for shops to only sell organic food or that I should get upset that they don't cater for my buying preferences. That's a better analogy.
Okay, so if you like it better, call it an allergy or intolerance. The agent is intolerant of books that don't pass the Bechdel test OR the Mako Mori test (which seems a bit broader, to me). So that agent won't be a good representative for those books. If I were an agent, I wouldn't represent books with elves. I absolutely hate elves. Doesn't mean books with elves are bad, I just don't like 'em. Don't want to read 'em, think about 'em, or try to sell 'em. So people shouldn't send me elf books. Send your elf books elsewhere - there's no shortage of elf-lovers in this twisted world.
Huh? Who forbid you to try non-Bechdel-fulfilling stories? It's not as if you'll have trouble finding them--they're still a substantial percentage of the market.
Then the agent should make it clear - along with the other things they prefer - what they expect from a submission, eg: Submission should be for the genre of ---- between ---- and ---- words in length, fiction, no sex, and must fulfill the requirements of the Bechdel criteria, please include first three chapters, full synopsis, your ideas for world peace and a photograph of your dog ...
