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  1. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    The Bernie Sanders support thread

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by 123456789, Apr 4, 2016.

    Due to the changing political climate, and the rapidly rising enthusiasm for a new type of political candidate (Sanders) and a campaign based on honesty, public participation, and serving the common good (the Sanders campaign) I think it's time to start a discussion that focuses solely on our man Bernie. There's a lot to talk about and soon there's going to be a lot more. Let me be specific. The purpose of this thread to discuss all things Sanders. Bernie doesn't smear other candidates, so we're not going to either. Of course we can and should intelligently and respectfully contrast his political stances with others. Most importantly, I'd like to hear people's thoughts regarding Bernie's chances of success.

    Fact 1. Bernie has won the last seven contests by over 69%.
    Fact 2. The democratic primaries and caucuses were designed to let the southern states vote first, so as to ensure that grassroots movements die.
    Fact 3. This grassroots movement hasn't died. In addition to fact 1, Hillary is now spending more money and time in NY, a state which she initially thought she had.

    Am I correct in saying these things?

    I think a lot of us are rightfully excited. Even the most hopeful of us (such as myself) don't expect him to win till June 7, so we're going to be biting our nails till then.

    What are people's thoughts on Wisconsin? I'm predicting he's going to win by over 69%.
     
  2. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Why put this in the debate room when all you seem to be interested in is talking about what you already believe? It belongs in the lounge with a warning, "if you are not pro-Sanders, don't post in this thread."

    I'm fine with that.
     
  3. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    Feel the Bern!

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2016
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  4. mmarage
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    mmarage The Detective Contributor

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    If you asked me a few weeks back, I would have said "A snowball's chance in hell." Now? I'm saying that he has a good shot to win this thing, and not only that he could win, but he's got to. I think he'll win Wisconsin by at least 75-80%.

    Also, Ginger is probably right since we likely won't be debating any points about Bernie's candidacy, more like chatting amongst ourselves about our hopes for his race.
     
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  5. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    There's a lot to debate. Some people think if he loses, support the other democratic candidate. Others think not. Some think he has a chance. Other's don't. Any time you talk politics, it's going to be a debate. But look. What happens in the media? Instead of talking about Bernie, we wind up focusing on the other two candidates. This thread is for those who want to to talk about Bernie.

    75- 80% is pretty high. I think that would make this Tuesday historic.
     
  6. mmarage
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    mmarage The Detective Contributor

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    Very true, whenever I talk about politics with anyone, it tends to turn into this huge debate, especially gun legislation laws in a classroom here in Idaho. >.> Did you know we passed a conceal and carry law where you don't need a permit to walk around with a gun in your pocket? Yeeaaah... debating why that's bad is like pulling teeth with some of these people.

    Mmm... true, but I guess I'm an idealist. :p And we all know how bad that is, amirite?
     
  7. Earp
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    Earp Active Member

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    There's a lot to like about Bernie Sanders. The basis of his campaign, that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer and the middle class is disappearing (mostly into the ranks of the poor) is inarguable. He is also the most honest and sincere of all the candidates on both sides.

    My (huge) problem with the guy is that his candidacy is based on the notion that, once we elect Sanders as president, this enormous sea change in attitude among the people will take place and people who support his policies will be elected as a Congressional majority in 2018. That won't happen, and nothing like it has ever happened in this country, nor in any other as far as I know. Unfortunately, he can't do anything he says he wants to do (see the bullet points on his website) without a compliant Congress, so I don't see how a Sanders win in November would result in anything but another four or eight years of nothing much.
     
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  8. Lea`Brooks
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    Lea`Brooks Contributing Member Contributor

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    I don't think he'll win Wisconsin by much. 55%, maybe. 60% at best. He just got ahead in the polls for the first time a couple days ago, so I don't think it's likely he'll take it by as large a margin as the last few. If he does, great! I hope he does. I guess I just don't want to get my hopes up too high.

    NY is what I'm worried about. He's still behind by a large number there, and he needs to snag a good amount of delegates to tighten the race.
     
  9. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    I saw a quote (can't remember who it was attributed to) that said "I'd rather vote for something I want and not get it, than vote for something I don't want and get it."

    If you're a progressive and want progressive values in the White House, there's no alternative to Sanders. He's a candidate we can actually support, affirmatively, rather than one you have to hold your nose over or choose as a lesser evil. That's why so many people like him. The argument about what he can get done is a poor one. Having him in the White House would be a significant change moving forward, that will extend beyond his term. He'll get done as much as he can, and how much that is will depend in part on how subsequent Congressional elections shake out. Having doubts about exactly how much he will get done is no reason not to support him. It doesn't make sense to me not to give it an honest try and stand up for the good candidate. Putting in someone bad because you think they'll get more done is an insane brand of reasoning.

    We will see how Sanders does in upcoming elections. He's still got an uphill fight, but success is achievable. He's already had a positive impact on the party and on large numbers of young voters, who are the future of the party. That's something to be cheerful about, regardless of the outcome of this primary. If he gets the nomination, then we're at a turning point. Even if he doesn't get it, I think we're at one, and people will one day look back and see it and see the last hoorah of the old, entrenched, establishment money and power. And if Sanders doesn't get it, there are other good candidates to vote for - don't forget about them.

    But at the moment, if you adhere to progressive candidates and want someone you can affirmatively support, Sanders is the only real game in town. That's not such a bad thing. We'll see more of it in the future.
     
  10. Lea`Brooks
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    Lea`Brooks Contributing Member Contributor

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    I read an article recently (I'd insert it, but it's basically just a fluff piece) that says, even if Sanders loses the nomination, he's already changed American politics forever. He's lit a fire in millennials, which is the largest and most liberal demographic right now, and they won't stop until they see a candidate that represents them and their values in the White House.

    So even if he loses, it isn't over. We're going to continue to fight for change and equality, and it will continue past this election cycle. It's a new era in America, my friends. :superyesh:
     
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  11. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    I think this is true. Particularly among young voters, and that's always where change starts. My daughter and her friends, who have never been particularly politically active, have gone out of their way to learn about the issues thanks to Sanders, and they're enthusiastic in their support of him.
     
  12. Lea`Brooks
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    Lea`Brooks Contributing Member Contributor

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    Same with the people I know. Almost all of my friends support Sanders. Even my Republican friend, who voted for Rubio, would support Sanders in the general. He follows Sanders pages on Facebook, comments on articles, and talks to me about him all the time. It's very strange for him to show interest in someone that isn't Republican. lol He literally cried when McCain lost in '08.

    Most of my friends supported Obama. But we're from Illinois. We knew him long before he announced, and he did a lot of good things for our state. Hell, my college alone is so great because of him. But they didn't support him with nearly the same enthusiasm as they support Sanders.
     
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    OK, let's talk about this. Just to be sure we're on the same page, it seems like we both agree that Sanders' hope rests in people voting for congress members who support his causes? If so, why do you think it won't happen? Revolutions do happen. They don't happen every day, because then there'd be nothing to revolt against.

    We're already seeing protests in LA against the media, and a protest next week in D.C.

    Look at it another way. All other candidates have been hoisted up by billionaires and millionaires. Bernie has been hoisted up by the people. Isn't that a sign that people are starting to fight back? It's not going to happen overnight.
     
  14. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    Like I said in the other thread, I think people will look back on this the same way we look back at the Civil Rights battle in the 1960s - that's how far I think we'll shift in the country. Supporting the GOP or conservative Democrat candidates of old, and supporting the ties to big finance and special interests, and the willingness to look away from corruption, lack of transparency, etc., is going to seem that far out of bounds to future generations. At least, if things continue to head in the right direction.

    Bernie represents that right direction. He's really the only candidate that gives us a meaningful choice in November. The work of the establishment against him is because the establishment doesn't want you to have a meaningful choice.

    I know a few Republicans who are supporting Sanders. Lot's of young people. Also some older people. I was talking to a friend who is a math professor, at about retirement age. He started talking about GW Bush, and those years of government, and how plain and apparent he thought the corrupt was. How he wondered why so many people couldn't see it. That transitioned into Clinton, and how he feels the same way about her candidacy - that corruption is so open the politicians aren't even afraid of being caught at it anymore. That then transitioned again to him supporting Sanders, and feeling like for the first time in a long time that he had someone he could actually support on the ballot, someone you really wanted in office rather than someone who was just "better than the other guy."

    That's pretty cool that Sanders can cut across so many societal and political lines. There's a demand out there for open and honest politicians, and it's not confined to one group or political party. I think supporting Sanders, and supporting Jill Stein as a backup, is a way to keep that momentum going.
     
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  15. Earp
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    Earp Active Member

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    Please note I didn't say I don't support Sanders - I wouldn't have posted in this thread otherwise. We have open primaries in my state, and I crossed the 'aisle' and voted for the Senator, though it was more a small (insignificant, really) gesture to help deny the nomination to his opponent. I haven't voted in the general election for a Democrat since George McGovern. I, too, was a socialist in my salad days.

    I'm older than many here, and probably more cynical. Hope is a wonderful personal attitude, but less useful as a political strategy (remember that our current president's slogan was 'hope and change', though he didn't mean it). The same oligarchy which Bernie is campaigning against still owns this country and its legislature. I just think that changing that fact in the span of one election cycle is overly optimistic. It's true that Sanders may well be starting a movement which will make a difference in the long term, but I recall (old, remember?) another guy who 'crossed societal and political lines' and 'changed American politics forever', and Ross Perot is now little more than a goofy footnote in the US political saga.

    I don't mean to harsh your mellow, and I'll vote for the Senator if he's the nominee, in part just to see what happens if he wins, but the slime who run this country won't go quietly.
     
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  16. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    Not quietly, or quickly, but do you think they're more or less likely to go at all if Sanders is the President versus a typical establishment politician?
     
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  17. Raven484
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    Raven484 Contributing Member

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    I love Bernie, but Clinton has all the money to back her. Those delegates have been long bought and paid for. I love that he is giving her a run for it. But in the end, everything is still so corrupt that they will overpower him. Best I think we can hope for is that it will change the way we vote in our House and Senate reps in the future.
    Clinton is a joke, much like the Republicans running. But Bernie, in my opinion, is starting a revolution for new young voters that will be seen in the future. They will not take a Clinton nomination laying down. Trump and Sanders have awoken the much silent majority in this country. Though I think neither will be elected, the whole political landscape will change because of them.
    I still pray for Bernie, and I hope I am wrong.
     
  18. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    So the Sanders support thread still ends up being the bash Clinton thread. This remains as the most realistic post in the thread:
     
  19. Raven484
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    Raven484 Contributing Member

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    As of right now, Clinton is the front runner. Why does it bother you that some of us support Sanders? All the candidates have flaws. Hillary is not the Messiah, everyone knows we will have the same as Obama if she is elected. A growing debt, and no way to pay for it.
    Sanders was considered a joke in the beginning, I am actually surprised at some of the younger voters getting so involved in his campaign. Its refreshing, we want something new, we want real change. Or at least a shot at change. Corporate America will rule under Clinton. They own her.
     
  20. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    It doesn't bother me at all. But this thread was started because it bothered everyone else that I actually supported Clinton and said so. My support of Clinton led to dozens of personal attacks lacking discussion of the actual facts. And when the mods suggested people leave the personal stuff out, @123456789 thought the problem was just that people wanted to post: "Let me be specific. The purpose of this thread to discuss all things Sanders."

    Some people prefer to voice their opinions in a public forum but don't want anyone else to post opposing views.

    I don't mind people starting a thread to gush about Sanders. I have nothing to say in such a thread. But when @Earp posted an opposing view, I did think it was important to let him know he wasn't alone in that view. If all you have are Sanders supporters posting, that's not a discussion, that's propaganda.
     
  21. Raven484
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    Raven484 Contributing Member

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    Got it. Just getting back from 4 day weekend, still pulling head out of my ass. At least the workday is almost over.
     
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  22. Megalith
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    Megalith Contributing Member Contributor

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    Wait, but this doesn't explain why Hillary Clinton would be any better in resolving the problem we have with congress. And if she isn't, then why do we want her over Sanders again? Regardless of what Sanders said or why he said it, this is important to distinguish first if we are wanting to establish a difference between the candidates and why we should consider one over the other.
     
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    Your post is entirely reasonable. I think most of us agree that the other democratic candidates represent the status quo, which means Bernie really is the only option. In that case, what else is there to do but try?
     
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  24. Lea`Brooks
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    Here's a great website showing targets Sanders needs to hit to win the nomination. He did worse in Arizona than the site said he should have. But he did better in every other state, so he's since made up the difference. I'll have to save this and keep it handy for the upcoming primaries.
     
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    Great chart. Honestly, when you break it down like that, it seems impossible that he (or should I say we) could lose.
     
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