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  1. Ankoku Teion
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    Ankoku Teion Active Member

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    the difference between writers and poets

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Ankoku Teion, Feb 4, 2015.

    i frequently use another site some of you might have heard of called Allpoetry (not trying to plug it, just explaining) and i have been greatly amused and intrigued by the different feel of the two communities.

    there its more gut-reaction based, people speak what they think, they let their thoughts run away with them. tangents aren't uncommon, humor of varying quality and appropriateness abounds and arguments can occur but are always good-natured.

    i don't see that nearly to the same extent here. its very serious, very straight laced,you think everything through and make sure to cover every point, you stay on topic and can seem quite cold and dismissive at times.

    even the most heated of arguments there pale in comparison to just how deep a slight disagreement can be here. its just so much more calculated.

    these are my own observations, any thoughts? anything to add or anyone wishing to prove me wrong?
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2015
  2. A.M.P.
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    A.M.P. People Buy My Books for the Bio Photo Supporter Contributor

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    Well, I've never been on AP, since I don't care for poetry much.
    But our "fights" in these forums were much worse earlier last year when there were more than a few stubborn members .
    Good times.

    This forum is a place of learning and many of us are actual successful writers, some wanna-bes, some who work/ed in publishing, and many are just starting to learn.
    For many, they've spent years in the world of writing and have thus accrued experience and skill and random knowledge.
    It's only natural that we often end up fighting over this and that, or dissecting each other's words, and plainly trying to show this is right and this is wrong.
    Lots of ideas, experience and skill that differ from everyone elses.
    Also doesn't help there is no actual stone-cold rules to follow when writing fiction :p
     
  3. Ankoku Teion
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    Ankoku Teion Active Member

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    there's no stone-cold rules when writing poetry, except for the ones you submit yourself to. but my point was more about the general conversation than the actual work. someone disagreed with something i said in the debate room the other day and i came away with a feeling i had never experienced before, one comment had such a greater effect on me that i would have thought possible.

    but even in your comment the difference is evident, you make clear-cut and precise points, fully developed and explained beyond what would be required for an adequate or even good level of understanding. i almost want to bulletpoint it.
     
  4. A.M.P.
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    A.M.P. People Buy My Books for the Bio Photo Supporter Contributor

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    That's just the way I write on forums.
    Wouldn't be the first time someone commented on it and said my line breaks are weird.
     
  5. Ankoku Teion
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    Ankoku Teion Active Member

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    nothing to do with linebreaks, its the attitude. typically your comment on AP would be more along the lines of

    " a lot of us here are published and many have experience in publishing etc. so there are a lot of differing opinions"
     
  6. A.M.P.
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    A.M.P. People Buy My Books for the Bio Photo Supporter Contributor

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    Maybe I'm just overly opinionated and tend to go on n on :p
     
  7. Okon
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    Okon Contributing Member Contributor

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    I think writers in general strive to avoid using verbose language, and yes, that may come across as rudely terse. Please, don't ever take what the people here say personally. We're just trying to get our point across effectively and convincingly:).

    I consider a good story to be a tight, but not necessarily valid, argument. It makes sense within its own guidelines, is presented in a digestible and entertaining manner, and thus seduces you into suspending your imagination's disbelief of dragons, coincidence, and talking vegetables. I won't speak for anyone else here, but my attempts to succeed in those areas have created a habit which isn't exclusive to writing stories, and now affects how I talk to people in person and online: concisely, though (hopefully) easy on the eyes and brain.

    The debate room is an extreme case of fine-toothed combing. If you are a little more sensitive with regards to communication, I suggest you focus your attention elsewhere here in the forum. A few people who frequent that place are actually certified in ruthlessly arguing details (they have law degrees). You honestly won't be the first or last person to avoid extreme topics in, as the non-debaters call it, the Room That Must Not Be Named:unsure:.
     
  8. Lea`Brooks
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    Lea`Brooks Contributing Member Contributor

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    I tried really hard to explain my idea for why you may notice a different between AP and here. But it came off very rude and heartless, and I didn't want to insult anyone on accident... lol

    So in simple terms, I wonder if poets write more with their hearts and writers write more with their logic? I'm not saying writers don't have heart and poets don't have logic, just that one is more dominant over the other.

    So here you're more likely to get very calculated responses because we're used to having to look at our work from all angles, poke holes in it, and see what the flaws are. (I mean, there are first, second, third, sometimes tenth drafts after all.) So it's natural for us to discuss and be thorough because that's what we're used to. But in AP, maybe you see more gut reactions because they are so used to pouring their hearts out that their emotions automatically take control in an argument.

    Just an possibility. Don't kill me. *hides under table*
     
  9. thirdwind
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    thirdwind Contributing Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    Poets are writers.
     
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  10. Ankoku Teion
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    Ankoku Teion Active Member

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    nah, im fine, it was just the initial shock from the difference, i thought the two would be more similar. extreme topics and controversial opinions are my forte, especially if i don't actually agree with what i'm saying.
     
  11. Ankoku Teion
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    Ankoku Teion Active Member

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    in a sense yes, but there is a big difference between writing poetry and writing a novel or story. they're slightly different skill sets that occasionally overlap
     
  12. Ankoku Teion
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    Ankoku Teion Active Member

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    no worries, its a valid point. as standard i usually do two drafts of a poem, the firs is an outpouring of thoughts and feelings, the second is an attempt to refine it and apply a pattern, rhythm etc. a system used by many poets, and there can be more if you use rhyme.

    you didn't come across as rude at all, i think your right about us prioritizing different ares, but both are required in both disciplines
     
  13. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    wut u got 2 understand is u wont c dis alot here. First off, it's discouraged. Second off, you'll look like an asshole. And that's the thing about WF. No one wants to look like an asshole. WF is filled with ego. Considering most of us are probably delusional, it shouldn't come as such a shock. Everyone is everybody's friend here, but don't you dare even suggest that your way of doing things is the best way, because you'll be consequently suggesting their way is inferior (even if its something obvious like 1st person present tense or using italics for thoughts), and you'll see the resulting hostility immediately.

    I'm going to assume poetry doesn't require the same amount of ambition and delusion writing fiction does. I'm assuming the market for poetry is smaller, right? Also, poetry is (again I'm assuming) more subjective. Harder to say he's a crappy poet than a crappy writer. So, you got happy go lucky people there, and you got people here waiting and watching to tear apart everything you say. We're really like a bunch of snide high school kids, myself excepting, of course.
     
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  14. Ankoku Teion
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    Ankoku Teion Active Member

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    i dont see a lot of that there either, its a nightmare to try to understand. anyone posting like that is largely ignored.

    i never said anything of the sort, im simply making a comparison and looking for input as to how the differences may arise.

    you wouldnt say that if you knew some of the people on all poetry.

    the real-world market is smaller because no-one reads poetry, online its a different story. its actually easier to put poetry down that stories in my opinion, because it is so subjective only a few people will understand your point, everone else thinks its a load of nonsense rubbish (apart from the people who go on and on about understanding it and what they see in it because they dont understasnd it. they do the same with modern art, and wine!)

    not really. just strongly opinionated people with a short fuse that dont always plan ahead.

    i saw that for myself, thats why i thought this thread might be interesting. who would take it as it was meant, who would take it as an afront to tnem and tear it to pieces, and who would see it as a joke.
     
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  15. Ankoku Teion
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    Ankoku Teion Active Member

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    i posted an identical thread on allpoetry same time as posting this, so far have one response

    "The only thing I would add is that overly moderated sites can be boring because the writers are just trying to please the moderators . I have no idea what many of the other sites are like but I have seen plenty just fade away."
     
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  16. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    This is a little true. I personally try to suck up to one mode at least once a day
     
  17. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Different forums have different atmospheres. It has nothing to do with the subject or purpose of the forum, more social dynamics that come from the earliest members. It's often hard to remove atmosphere too, other than years of forum social evolution.

    I frequent the Online-Literature forum and if you think this place is combative then ... don't go on there. There are 4 PhDs in literature or art on that forum, a few more MA students, many more teachers and professional critics - and it shows in the quality of the posts and what you can learn there. There is one guy there who is perhaps the smartest person I've ever came across, and if you think I'm a book snob then all I can say is 'you poor thing'.

    Yes, this place can be a little heated - personally I like that. For one thing it's not universal across the forum. The heat also shows someone at least cares about something. And some of the personal issues that have come out here are occasionally amusing, sometimes weird, often idiotic, and always hilarious. Sometimes here, though, they can also be annoying - sometimes (even worse) they are not even 'misunderstandings'. Intentional misreadings for some unknown reason; of that I'm sure of. If the other is actually the case then I've taught high school, and have frankly seen better reading comprehension from a low set English class when compared to some people who have used this forum over the years, who profess to care about literature and being a creator of English sentences.

    One thing I have noticed here, which is both something I like and dislike about this site, is that there seem to be a literary consensus of sorts. Those who obviously read a lot of high quality literature often have the same tastes - many members here generally like James Joyce, Hemingway, and the other usual suspects. It means, there is not a lot of knowledge about literature from outside the Western Canon, and there are no great literary disputes here. No huge differences in reading practices either - so while knowledge of 'good literature' is here pretty established, it's fairly safe.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2015
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  18. The Cuckoo's Nest
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    I thought things were pretty civil here, and that when things start to turn sour, the mods here intervene very quickly.

    I'm also a member of a political debate forum. You want to see heated arguments...?
     
  19. Darkkin
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    Darkkin Reflection of a nobody Contributor

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    I've been a hardass on several poetry critiques that I 've done. Not sorry I did it, I just wish others would have the courage to speak up. The poetry boards here tend to be kind and a bit vague, mention rhyme scheme and metre and you can almost see the glazed expression setting in. One never see any edits or reworkings of these pieces.

    Seriously folks, poetry is about the fire, the passion, and the challenge...not Cream of Wheat, and yes, some of it is that tepid. It seems like some of us are doing poetry by default, not by choice. Some of it is painful, my own work included. You want to write poetry make people believe it. If you don't believe in your own work, why should anyone else.

    (Steps off soapbox, exits stage left...).
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2015
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  20. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    I feel the same way about the general writing quality here. Very vanilla.
     
  21. pk.
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    Editing seems harder as a poet rather than any other writer in my opinion, because you are dealing with often-times feelings which cannot be concretely expressed, feeling before thought rather than the inverse. Often times these choices of words are not rational and therefore it seems irrational to change the irrational, if it seems right. I would also like to mention that meter is important, however it seems also, to the modern reader, that strict structure and old conventions are out-dated. I know I have read many places who wish to do away with strict structure and find a musical melody in free-verse?
     
  22. Ankoku Teion
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    structures are, in my experience, still used, however free-verse and loose-verse(i think thats the term) are becoming increasingly common.
     
  23. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Maybe among bad poets, I'm not sure it's the case with contemporary good poets. Consulting random collections of Michael Longley, Richard Tillinghast, Seamus Heaney and Simon Armitage I have at hand I find sonnets and forms and standard structures abound. The main thing now seems to be either blank verse or unrhymed four-line stanzas.
     
  24. Ankoku Teion
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    i reject your proposal that bad poets use free-verse, as the implication is that poets who use free-verse are bad, i myself use freeverse.

    structures, when done well, are excellent and favoured by critics and publishers, freeverse can have just as much meaning and be just as well written they just dont adhere to a common or officially recognised structure, they adhere to the structure of the poet that writes them.

    my own poems, more often than not are structured almost in an hourglass pattern, stanzas of decreasing number of lines until it comes to two lines then increasing again to the original number, e.g. 5,4,3,2,3,4,5. they have a pattern and a rhythm of syllables that is fairly consistent throughout my work.
     
  25. pk.
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    I cannot defend my stance. Obviously there is a need for structure, however what that structure is made up of is allusive to me. I read somewhere (I think Mary Oliver) that it would be absurd to write like the people in the 18th, 19th century would. So finding that balance is what I really want to get to the heart of and if anyone knows writing which addresses this issue I would be very appreciative.
     
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