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  1. Justin Rocket 2
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    Justin Rocket 2 Contributing Member

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    The left side of libertarianism

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Justin Rocket 2, Aug 11, 2016.

    A lot of people don't understand that Libertarians are just as strongly socially liberal as they are fiscally conservative. They want the government out of peoples' bedrooms and private lives. Here's Johnson on how to address discrimination in law enforcement. Liberals should find it quite agreeable.
    http://video.foxnews.com/v/embed.js?id=5034133960001&w=466&h=263
     
  2. Acanthophis
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    Acanthophis ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Contributor

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    Johnson definitely has some good ideas, but he's also got some that are really bad and scary. We'll never find someone we agree with 100%, but a lot of leftists place value in things he doesn't. His stance on climate change, for example, is quite uneducated and flat out wrong. That's a big enough red flag for many progressives.

    He'd still be better than the orange demon and her majesty the queen.
     
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    He believes that the free market can address climate change. Given that, when the government gets involved, we end up with problems like the Cuyahoga River Fire, what alternative (i.e. not the free market and not government intervention) do you want?

    You might enjoy reading Myths Surrounding the Cuyahoga River Fire 35 Years Ago.
     
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    Then why don't we let the free market address international affairs? I'd rather my tax dollars go to ensuring I have an environment than toward unbeneficial international aggression and international welfare.
     
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  5. Justin Rocket 2
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    I don't know which international affairs you believe we shouldn't be involved in, perhaps opening our doors to Syrian refugees?

    The problem with tax dollars going to ensure environment is that, if the Cuyahoga River Fire can be taken as an example, getting the government involved will make the environment worse.
     
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    Anything that costs taxpayer's money.
     
  7. Justin Rocket 2
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    Then Johnson's your man. He is, by FAR, the candidate in favor of cutting foreign investitures (for example, he wants to cut the size of military bases in Europe by something like 43%).

    Gary Johnson Grabs the GOP's Third Rail: Cutting Military Spending
     
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  8. Acanthophis
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    Acanthophis ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Contributor

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    He also believes the age for social security should be bumped up into the young age of 72, truly a man looking out for the people. Donald Trump doesn't even support something that stupid.
     
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    Why should young people give a shit about social security when old people don't care about education or the environment?
     
  10. Justin Rocket 2
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    When Social Security was established (1935), the average lifespan for males was 59.9 years and for women it was 61.6. In 2010, the average lifespan for males was 76.2 and for women it was 81.1

    In other words, when social security was established, it wouldn't kick in until the average male and female were dead. Trump's plan is better than that.
     
  11. Acanthophis
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    Acanthophis ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Contributor

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    I'd rather everyone have access to a better lifestyle than only those who agree with my views.
     
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    Justin Rocket 2 Contributing Member

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    I'm going to assume that you realize that social security is going to need to be funded by taxes taken from laborers? It was never designed to support people living on it for ten years or more. Taking it from taxes means a diminished lifestyle for the laborers.
     
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    Acanthophis ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Contributor

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    I know how taxes work. I live in a country which benefits greatly from social programs.

    The "it wasn't designed this way" logic is so deeply flawed. The system wasn't designed with women voting, or blacks being non-slaves. But that changed. We change things. It's called progress. We make changes to policy as we go, because we find new ways to deal with the problems we face.
     
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    Sorry, I'm not interested in paying for old people so they can spend more time bogging down checkout lines when we could be using that money toward things that benefit mankind as a whole, like educating people so they can advance technology- including things like immortality- and also like saving our planet.
     
  15. Justin Rocket 2
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    We don't change things arbitrarily, that's called solipsistic. But please do explain to me how women's suffrage and black emancipation has enabled social security to cover some where between sixteen and twenty times more years of retirement per retiree.
     
  16. Oscar Leigh
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    You know Justin, yeah, I do like libertarians. The conservative social values of today are just regressive and ignorant. So I welcome those who can have the economic discussion without holding on to bigotry and anti-science efforts on important advances like abortion. I believe that the right in the west will turn mainstream libertarian as the shift left in the west continues, and indeed surges as old conservative generations die and the newer more progressive ones come in.
    I'd like to note that I can't access your video.
     
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    Oscar Leigh Contributing Member

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    Straw man. That was not an example of how it is covered. And dude, neither is the suggestion that we change things arbitrarily a suggestion of his. The idea is to help people. I'd say that's worth money. You pay for your food. But you won't pay taxes to save a homeless man who can't afford healthcare?
     
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    I said nothing about homeless people being helped with healthcare. I'm FOR them receiving such help.
     
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    In 2013, Hillary stated that she was against gay marriage in New York. Libertarians have always been FOR gay marriage. Libertarianism isn't just a variant of right-wing politics. It stands for a new vision radically different and improved over Republicans and Democrats. If you are looking for leadership towards increasing social freedom of citizens and fiscal restraint, Libertarianism is something you'll like.
     
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    Yes, it's always been for as long as it was a respectable discussion, and you could get away with saying you were for it. And so have many of the left-wing, just not Hilary. Do you take her as some universal representative? Not even close.
    Also, btw Libertarian is a variant of right-wing in the sense that's it's right wing. It's not born from Republicans but that's not what "right-wing"means.
     
  21. Oscar Leigh
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    Okay then, or any other supportive services. It's still maintaining someone's basic life functioning in return for taxes from people who can afford it. I find the complaints about taxes to pay for such services to be fundamentally uncharitable. If you can't handle paying to help people less fortunate then I don't know what to say except I disagree.
     
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    Being a leader in ethics means taking the ethical path even when it isn't respectable.
    When what they should have been doing is taking the ethical path before it became respectable.
    And, yet, the democrats chose her as their POTUS candidate.
    No, Libertarians are not right-wing (regardless of where they came from). Or, rather, they are every bit as much left-wing (since they are more socially liberal than Democrats) as they are right-wing (as they are more fiscally conservative than Republicans).
     
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    I am absolutely in favor of peoples' basic life functions being maintained. Believing that the government is competent to do that (not just in theory, but in practice) is naive. I've been through it. I've personally known people (in blue states, no less) who were living in parks because they couldn't hold down jobs (due to mental disorders) and the government gave them no meaningful help. Do you know that the government provides no dental care for being on social security? Do you know that, when you get social security disability, you lose your health insurance? Or that the government's idea of mental health counseling is a pathetic joke? Do you somehow think you can wave a magic wand and make all the bureaucratic bullshit which distorts government-funded social services disappear? Please, give me an actually functional and feasible plan (not "we can do it if group x would only work with us," tell me how you are going to get group x to work with you). If you can't, then stop being naive.
     
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    Oh yes, I'm sure the America system is terrible. But that's because America's entire welfare system is disgracefully behind. And your consumer protection laws! My god how can you trust businesses MORE when you're regulating them LESS! Please tell me how profiterring could possibly be better than a public service effort when demonstrably your country suffers due to higher private involvement. You think it's coincidence that America has so much inaccessability compared to more welfare western nations? My plan is to do what you should be doing which is what everyone else is bloody doing. Copy Australia if you must.
     
  25. Oscar Leigh
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    Before a certain point in time it was not only impossible to acheive gay marriage, it was also unwanted.
    Yes, because of her powerful friends, and because she can win (and will). But a lot of her appeal is planned not natural. She shifts on issues. She's part of older white power circle, she's not like most American people.
    And that claim you've got about being more is from the leader, not an unbiased honest source. I maintain that the libertarian party have more in common with the republicans since they're right side covers more issues and they're ideology is right, all this freedom stuff is right, the left is about security and regulation.
     
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