I remember seeing a funny de-motivational poster that said "not everyone gets to be an astronaut when they grow up". Life isn't fair and the stance that horrible inequality and a broken economy is okay because someone could possibly overcome it is like saying the lottery is a viable investment strategy since you could technically win.
If what you say is true, that no one can make their own opportunities. Slavery would still be in existence. We would all be rich, after the poor died out from lack of anything. Oh and the whole, Capitalism is a curse thing. Who the hell made your computer? Or maybe you made that, okay that's reasonable. Then who made your television, who makes the shows on it? Okay maybe you don't own a television. Do you ever get sick? Do you ever need medication, capitalism right there. It does not matter what country you live in. Capitalism is everywhere. Unless you'd rather be a communist which no one seems to want. And I'd doubt you give money and act charitably to everyone in need. It makes no sense for a person to do so, yes it is good and fine to help here and there. But honestly many people in poverty put it upon themselves. Some didn't but who the hell are we to know?
You seem to have completely missed the point of my post, which was that no one can make themselves a success without relying, usually heavily, on other people. You wanna start a business, you're relying on other people paying for educating a workforce, providing infrastructure, creating laws. You wanna get a job, you're relying on publicly funded education to enable you to enter the workforce. If you think you're making an opportunity for yourself, you're just not thinking hard enough about how much you owe to people who have made it possible for you. The patron sponsoring my job spoke to me extensively about that recently; the reason she puts so much back into the economy and the public arts sector is that she acknowledges the great debt she owes to society for them enabling her to get to where she is. In my day to day job, at one of this country's most prestigious galleries, I run into people who have spent their whole lives working and working and gotten nowhere because they never caught a lucky break, people who are talented and hard working and dedicated, but most importantly, unlucky. Anyone who thinks success is based on anything more than luck and (usually public/government) support is simply lucky enough to have not been forced to make that realisation yet.
You seem to have completely missed the point of my post, which was that no one can make themselves a success without relying, usually heavily, on other people. You wanna start a business, you're relying on other people paying for educating a workforce, providing infrastructure, creating laws. You wanna get a job, you're relying on publicly funded education to enable you to enter the workforce. If you think you're making an opportunity for yourself, you're just not thinking hard enough about how much you owe to people who have made it possible for you. The patron sponsoring my job spoke to me extensively about that recently; the reason she puts so much back into the economy and the public arts sector is that she acknowledges the great debt she owes to society for them enabling her to get to where she is. In my day to day job, at one of this country's most prestigious galleries, I run into people who have spent their whole lives working and working and gotten nowhere because they never caught a lucky break, people who are talented and hard working and dedicated, but most importantly, unlucky. Anyone who thinks success is based on anything more than luck and (usually public/government) support is simply lucky enough to have not been forced to make that realisation yet.
The notion of "taking" opportunities is ridiculous. Opportunities present themselves from time to time, and and if you're able and willing you go for it, but how hard you try has nothing to do with the outcome. More often than not, your fate is in other people's hands, not your own, whether it's in the context of study, interviewing for a job, applying for a business loan, whatever. You might spot the opportunity in the same way that someone on a ship might spot an iceberg, but unless you're at the top of the capitalist foodchain, your hands are nowhere near the wheel.
The notion of "taking" opportunities is ridiculous. Opportunities present themselves from time to time, and and if you're able and willing you go for it, but how hard you try has nothing to do with the outcome. More often than not, your fate is in other people's hands, not your own, whether it's in the context of study, interviewing for a job, applying for a business loan, whatever. You might spot the opportunity in the same way that someone on a ship might spot an iceberg, but unless you're at the top of the capitalist foodchain, your hands are nowhere near the wheel.
Please. There is no 'system'. Some people are born into better circumstances than others, but not all of them make the most of it. There's a slide down as well as a climb up the ladder of opportunity. Brains have something to do with it. And protest that is unlawful cannot be permitted in a civilized society. They can make their case and argue within the limits of the law and without being a nuisance to people who are just going about their daily work. Plenty of the rioters in London that were convicted came from perfectly well-off families--they had no excuse to be damaging and looting and I don't believe they were out for anything other than self-servicing troublemaking and thieving, sorry. This kind of mindless protest is only possible in countries where people have a high standard of living and too much time on their hands. What do they live off when they are lying about on the steps of St Paul's Cathedral? Who feeds them? Who do they think they are representing? No sympathy whatsoever with this nonsense.
To which I have to reply: Bull. I was a single parent. Other than forcing the father to pay child support - his responsibility, not a 'favor' to me - I made my own opportunities. I bought a house. I went back to school. I paid taxes to support the roads and police and all the other things government provides its citizens. No, not everything I attempted turned out the way I wanted it to - no one is guaranteed success. But I didn't sit back and wait for someone to do me a favor. And if I hadn't worked my ass off to have the successes I did, they wouldn't have happened at all to any degree. If you go through life thinking that you have no responsibility for your own success or failure, that no matter how hard you work it won't matter because it's all in the hands of others, it won't surprise me a bit if you end up bitterly decrying how life was unfair, and blaming others when things don't work out for you.
I am taking an opportunity right now. It basically a buy low sell high plan with some merchandise. There is a chance of a high ROI (aiming for 300%). There is also a chance I will get washed. I am taking advantage of someone’s else’s need to fire sell. If that is not taking an opportunity I don’t know what is. Maybe you should hang out with artist less. These are individuals that took a high risk in career choice and it did not pay off. I salute there risk, but not any complaining. I have been washed too quite a few times.
So ultimately your opportunity is out of your control and subject to the vicissitudes of the market and the speculators that control that. On related OWS news, Scott Olsen is recovering well from his fractured skull at the hands of the Oakland PD; I do not understand how brutal the police can be against mostly unarmed people; sure a small group might have thrown something (unconfirmed) but they are wearing helmets and carrying shields. The police forget that the protestors are out there for them as well, police after all are union members. Oakland OWS is now reorganizing and calling for a general strike.
Casualty conservation, generally if the rioters are going to be violent it is best to end it as quickly as possible. Considering they called mutual aid I don’t think the protesters where that peaceful. Much better then injured first responders of any kind.
Casualty conservation, generally if the rioters are going to be violent it is best to end it as quickly as possible. Considering they called mutual aid I don’t think the protesters where that peaceful. Much better then injured first responders of any kind.
Pretty repulsed by the right wing attitudes here towards the poor, particularly the idea that they are undeserving 'because they bring it on themselves.' *Shudder* As for 'going out and getting opportunities'.... how far did Dubya have to get out of his front door before he was bundled into the Presidency? I can't really handle anymore of this kind of conversation, it's so inhumane and makes me so very disappointed in humanity. The "We are 53%" people are fucking simpletons... The only tragedy there is what a waste of oxygen they are. Kudos to those of you with the intelligence to realise that Occupy is a force for good, borne out of unimaginable inequality & the catastrophic failure of deregulated markets.
Why? If they wouldn't protest nothing would happen to them. They don't even have a reason, nothing will come of it. Hey, the Egyptians had a reason and nothing really came out of that. Still under marshal law. At least hes not ranting about praying the gay away like Bachmen and her husband. Please don't misunderstand, I'm not advocating human injury and by all means not death. I just think it is stupid, not even a reason. Maybe the first 10 had one, but everyone else. They have no idea what they are even doing there. Releasing teenage angst?
Going back to school isn't "making an opportunity", it's taking advantage of a social system provided by the government. Yeah, you probably worked hard to educate yourself, as did all the people currently protesting around the world, the difference between you and them is that they realise that society benefits from systems like public education and are willing to fight to ensure they continue, and you and the rest of the right wing take them for granted and think that all of your success is the result of you and only you. I'm not saying that working hard doesn't mean anything, I'm saying that working hard in isolation is meaningless. Your hard work is only a very small part of the puzzle, the rest of which is filled with the social, political and economic structures that enabled you to work hard in the first place. And it's those structures that are under threat from corporatism and corruption; education is increasingly unavailable, jobs are increasingly unavailable, welfare is increasingly unavailable...you put those three together and it doesn't matter how hard you work, you're not going to have any opportunities to take, and the few opportunities that are there are going to be contested so much more fiercely than before. @James Berkley, regarding your "buy low sell high" plan, it's still very little down to you...those kinds of schemes more than any other, really. You're one tiny, tiny part in a huge system that relies entirely on forces far beyond your control. You're taking advantage of an economic downturn that was nothing to do with you to buy goods which you had no hand in producing to sell to consumers at a higher price (again, thanks to economic devices beyond your control) who have money and demand that are beyond your control. It's not an opportunity you're making for yourself, it's one that has presented itself to you thanks yo forces far beyond your control, which is the whole point of the left and the wall st protestors--it's fine to capitalise on these sorts of situations, but you have to acknowledge the systems behind them and make sure to pay back into them to ensure that these situations can be provided to your kids, and their kids, instead of allowing the system to be commandeered by corrupt corporations and institutions who have effectively denied my generation the opportunities that my parents and their parents were given. I don't know how anyone can really believe that global riots are just dumb kids screwing around, or the result of some inherent criminality. The people protesting are educated, articulate and organised...they don't have the answers any more than anyone else has them, because there are no answers. Really, we don't even know what the question is yet, but that's why they're there, rallying together to try and fix a system that has screwed millions of people out of their hard-earned money, their jobs, their opportunities and their children's opportunities.
Then I guess you don't realise that many of the Occupy LSE have come straight from Dale Farm protests: the protest against illegal construction without planning permission that everyone else has to obey but apparently travellers, who pay no council tax, have to abide by. Furthermore, I don't understand why people are saying luck has anything to do with it. There's no such thing as luck. For example maybe you're too late applying for a job, or other people who are better than you also apply so they are chosen, or there is a company nearby owned and managed by a benevolent person who is willing to fund you. Sorry but a mix of circumstances is not luck. It's a mix of circumstances. That's like saying it's bad luck if you get a stomach ache on Christmas day because you eat one sweet thing after another. A sequence of events no matter how short or how long has nothing to do with luck. Luck is superstition and a sad attempt to pass the buck onto something ethereal. If you got into a bad situation, there is always a cause: for example finding yourself getting sacked, it's one of three things 1) you were not the best at the job so you were made redundant 2) You did something bad 3) the company went bust. All three have traceable causes and could have been avoided. Before anyone gets the wrong idea about me, I am a socialist-leaning libertarian Christian, and by all means I believe everyone could easily be more benevolent to those who fall on hard times, that it wouldn't take much to help people start new companies. I don't know the costs of starting a company but with over 300,000,000 people in the US, one dollar each could go a long way... I mean if you're not the sort of company owner who wants to strangle competition for a monopoly on the industry. But don't let people use 'luck' as an excuse. It's not conducive to hard work. Let them find the source of the problem, recognise it, and adapt to avoid the problem in future.
The banking system has taken tremendous risks with our savings and investments, secures its fund managers enormous bonuses. When it goes wrong, due to a lack of strong regulation, the ordinary taxpayer funds the bailout, i.e. governments intervene. The same organisations that the right wing want to see devolved! Of course the 1% won't pay this, because they structure their tax contributions in such a way as to avoid paying the tax that people outside of bonus cultures cannot enjoy the equivalent of. Countries, i.e. collectives of people, i.e. society, bails out those who got burned taking risks to make great fortunes that have put them in the top and ensured increasing income inequality. I'm on the dollar equivalent of a good six figure salary. But I got here, in the UK, through a strong public education, free at the point of access health service for me and my children and numerous other government loans and schemes that helped me train and funded my now defunct business, which itself gave me the skills to take on the more well paid jobs I couldn't have without that funding. I got here by the collective efforts, gathered through tax, of everyone else in society, and I pay proportionately more tax to ensure that people who need that help to move themselves up in life get it. I'm happy to pay more tax. I don't have lots of foreign holidays, I rarely get one a year, I'm not rich rich. However, I don't have to worry about food or warmth or clothing my kids, why is that not something to be satisfied with, with all else, flat screen tvs, gaming laptops, eating at restaurants, to be enjoyed and considered as the luxuries they are. How much do people actually need? edited to add re the poster above me, how do you reconcile 'socialist leaning' and 'libertarian'?
Because libertarian means you do what you like, I'll do what I like. Socialism forces people to act in a certain way, generally through taxation, but it's principles are in making sure nobody goes without. In case anyone thinks otherwise, let me remind you Socialism is an economic model and as such is one applied by the government. For it to exist, it is enforced through taxation. Libertarianism gives people the opportunity without demanding everyone participate. As such, I would like to raise money to help those who have fallen and bad times, this is where I can work with the socialist, because that is my personal passion. However, expecting someone to give up their hard-earned money because "they should" is just going to make people leave your country and take their money elsewhere. In greater detail, I'm deontological libertarian: Deontological libertarianism is based on the non-aggression principle, which states that no human being holds the right to initiate force or fraud against the person or property of another human being, under any circumstances. ps. yes, I did just copy paste that from Wikipedia. I couldn't think of a better way of putting it.
http://gothamist.com/2011/10/27/occupy_wall_street_kitchen_revolts.php Also, this is a little too sweet. Apparently the homeless are not a part of the 99% who need help.
Yes, I think libertarianism, along with almost all other political ideologies, only work well on a personal basis. Capitalism gives us the freedom to buy what we want, if we choose to. It also gives people the freedom to run heavily into debt, unfortunately. But capitalism is something that can work as an overarching economic model, whilst politically, we interact with each other.
Re: luck, obviously I don't believe there's some magical force that determines what's going to happen with the flip of a coin...give me a little credit...I agree, 'luck' is just a shorthand way of talking about all the possible things that could potentially go right or wrong in a particular situation, but are still beyond your control. For example, a number of factors came together to help me get my current job--my experience and hard work is definitely part of it, but it also has a lot to do with the timing and attitudes of other people (a new director who wanted someone with a writing background, which meant I applied at just the right time; my competitor being offered a job she took elsewhere, opening the job up for me to take, happening to be asked questions in the interview that I could easily answer as opposed to ones I could not, etc, etc). Like I said, I've met plenty of people who have toiled for decades in pursuit of their dreams and gotten nowhere, and there are others like me who have had a relatively 'lucky streak'--not that there's some mythical force, just that a lot of things beyond my control have come together in such a way that I am presented with opportunities. Getting this job had nothing to do with me "making" an opportunity...an opportunity was there, I applied, the rest was more or less beyond my control. Invoking 'luck' has nothing to do with 'passing the buck' or denying responsibility for things, it's just a shorthand way of acknowledging that circumstances beyond your control often dictate how your life turns out.
