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  1. LordKyleOfEarth
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    LordKyleOfEarth Contributing Member Contributor

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    The police thread (not the band)

    Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by LordKyleOfEarth, Mar 21, 2009.

    [​IMG]

    I would like to set the ground rules for this discussion:
    Part one: Things this thread IS
    -A civilized discussion of police forces
    -A place to share stories (good or bad) regarding personal experiences with the police
    -A place where 80-90% of the crap we spew forth is supported by FACTUAL sources (not blogs or editorial pages. News sites are good, wikipedia is allowable)

    Things this thread IS NOT
    -A cop bashing thread
    -A place to brag about illegal things you may have gotten away with
    -A place to whine about how it is sooo unfair that you have to pay for being stupid.

    Ok. That being said, let the discussion begin!
    ============================================================


    There have been an abnormal number of officers on the streets as of late. Sadly, they are not stepping up patrols in an attempt to stop crime or protect citizens. They are out enforcing traffic regulations in an attempt to raise money for their home cities.

    Asylum Article: Recession Will Result in More Traffic Tickets
    Free Republic article: Study finds another reason to hate recession: More tickets
    NY Times: Parking Tickets a Growing Source of City Revenue

    Today I passed 4 patrol cars along a 1 mile stretch of highway. I passed another 2 cars on the access road once I exited. 5 of the 7 had a motorist pulled over at the time.

    I have been called "Cop lover" by my friends due to my tendency to (almost) always defend the actions of police officers. They are people who are doing a job. Most of the time they have the best of intentions, and I respect that. Sadly, I cannot support this. In my eyes this is a randomly assessed motorist tax. How do yall feel?
     
  2. apathykills
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    apathykills Contributing Member

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    Did you know British police do not carry guns?

    I always wander how that works in case force or violence suddenly becomes necessary.

    But ye traffic cops are a special breed.

    i remember one time my friend got stopped by a traffic cop for talking on his cell, except he didn't, and showed this but promptly taking the cell out of his glove compartment and pointing to the Bluetooth headset he was wearing.

    The cop still gave him a ticket for having dirty windows that he believed were obscuring his vision.

    Another time three cops arrived at my house thinking i stole a bike (because i had to carry mine home after they got a flat). i can get that they have to investigate a stolen bike, if my bike was stolen i would like them to look into it but the way i was treated was less then nice to say the least.

    Just two examples of cops taking what little power is given to them and abuse it to fill big and traffic cops in my idea represent this idea in the highest form.

    Don't get me wrong, i know that cops are a necessary and vital part of society, but i really do believe that the people that choose to be cops do it for all the wrong reasons.
     
  3. Ashleigh
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    Ashleigh Contributing Member Contributor

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    ^^

    Disallowing guns = No silly fatal accidents = less death.

    It's a good idea - guns are illegal here after all. plus, we honestly dont have much gun crime because it's illegal to have a gun, though we do have knife crimes instead.
    I guess people will always find a way to be violent.


    When I was on holiday in Italy last summer, every scary security guard had a gun :eek: I'd never ever seen a real gun before. It was scary to think that any *Sign* of trouble at what was a normal, every day trainstation could result in them firing that gun.

    And that's not even a police officer- he was just security!

    If guns were made illegal everywhere, then it'd be unecessary for a police officer to have a gun. I think guns are awful...
     
  4. apathykills
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    apathykills Contributing Member

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    ^

    Criminals that don't get guns because they are illegal?

    Man i wish our criminals were that considerate of the law.

    and as a man that has lived with a personal assault rifle next to him for 3 years and has had more guns around him then he can count, let me assure you they do not fire accidentally.
     
  5. SonnehLee
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    SonnehLee Contributing Member Contributor

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    You'd never seen a gun? :eek:

    The SRO officer that works at our school even carries a gun. There are many police officers who go their entire careers without having to actually shoot *at* someone. (Including our SRO officer), the way I see it, it's just a precaution, in case something was to go wrong.

    I just feel better knowing that they have, at the very least, have been trained to know when to use it, how to use it effectively, and where to shoot non-fatally.

    But, to each their own.
     
  6. lordofhats
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    lordofhats Contributing Member

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    I agree about some cops being really aggressive in their job. I don't think it's abuse of power though (though I agree many people probably become cops because they want some degree of power over others). It's a psychological tactic at times. They act really brazen and abrupt to put people off (good cop bad cop minus the good cop). It's intended to send the message "even if you didn't do something don't do it in the future cause well be just this jerky." It's also intended to unnerve people and make them slip up, which people who aren't good at lying will do very quickly with a really rude cop at their door.

    I think traffic cops break that mold though. They can be real a-hole's at times and give you tickets for nothing. Some of them are cool though. When I got pulled over for speeding, the cop let me off because it was a first offense and didn't want to mar a new drivers record so soon. He was cool. -And to be honest I hadn't intended to speed, the speed limit dropped twenty miles on that stretch of road, and the sign isn't really that visible with that oak tree growing in front of it.

    That's not really it. Britain has long banned the private ownership of firearms, and it's very difficult for people there to get any without connections beyond the countries boarders. Furthermore, Britain is an island, and has more control over what comes through its boarders.

    The US isn't like that. It's very easy to get guns into the US even if we were to ban them all outright. Mexico isn't that far away, and neither is the Caribbean both of which are major stopping points in the gun market, and where most illegal assault weapons in the US come from. Plus, there are millions of guns already in the US and we can't really make a practical method of getting them out of the public realm of circulation.

    We need our cops with firearms because in some cities they'll probably get shot if they don't have them (heck, they get shot even when they do have them on occasion XD). Plus, with criminals here always ready with firearms, it would be foolish not to supply police with an equal if not better arsenal.
     
  7. Benska
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    Benska Member

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    One thing that happened relatively lately was really bad: There was teenage boy, I'm pretty sure he was around 14 or 15, who snapped for some reason, and, to shorten the story a bit, he stole 2 knives from some shop, and was running around with them. He didn't hurt anyone the whole time, but eventually ended up in a stand-off with, I think, 3 policemen at a skatepark. He was about 6 metres or so from the police, and supposedly "charged toward them." Those cops shot the kid 6 times... 6 bloody times! Any need for that? I don't think so... bring in the tazer, I say.
     
  8. Ashleigh
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    Ashleigh Contributing Member Contributor

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    As lord of hats said, you cannot actually *get* guns in england. We dont sell them and it's very unlikely that they can get into the country.
    Of course guns *exist* in England, but your average Joe certainly wont get hold of them easily, if at all.

    And i didnt say they fire accidently, but carelessness with a gun can result in death. E.g, when a man ran for a bus near the scene of a crime (i forget where) he was shot dead, because the police mistook him for the criminal.

    Not only did an innocent man die, but the criminal would've died had it have been him. He robbed a bank, but it would never have warrented open fire.
    Now a wife and two kids are left without a daddy.

    Plus, all the school shootings in the USA wouldn't happen if it wasnt for the fact that pretty much all the kids neighbours and most likely their parents have guns/access to guns - but, that's a different story altogether, and I dare say has alot more to do with the kids state of mind than anything else.
     
  9. Neha
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    Neha Beyond Infinity. Contributor

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    Cops can be good, and cops can be bad.

    A cop here raped a 15 year old and got her pregnant...imagine that! The poor girl was already 5 months off when she discovered that the indicator didn't give the right result.Till then it was too late for an abortion.
     
  10. Speedy
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    Speedy Contributing Member Contributor

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    The thing that worries me about police. Im not sure how big it is overseas, but in Australia the turn over rate is huge. Which means the police force is always occurpied with inexperience.... and i was a social worker in sydney for a few years helping Aboriginals out and it was scary how many of the "noob" police couldn't get their hands away from their guns "just in case". It worried me. I always though some kid i new would be dead the next day (Twice it happened, and twice it was when they "noob" police were in town).

    I dont mind police. just like the ones that have been around long enough to know what they are doing.
     
  11. Neha
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    Neha Beyond Infinity. Contributor

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    Here, for doing that, the cops would have to be in time. They're always late. And then they hand over every case to the CBI. Like the Nithari Serial Murders. And then there was the Arushi Talwar Murder Case, where they arrested the FATHER for killing his own daughter without evidence!
     
  12. Benska
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    Benska Member

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    I have encountered one of those "noob" policemen. One day when we were out skating at a train station, where, aparently, it is illegal to do so, there was a noob policeman standing across the road just watching us. He would take a few steps then turn back every now and then.

    It was pretty funny, because when he finally came over and asked us to "v-vacate *puts hand on baton thing* the premisis," all shakey voiced, we just left, like we would've done in the first place... And I live in a quiet neighbourhood, with not much violence at all, so I don't know what he expected. I have heard many similar stories of useless cops.

    Just makes you wonder how well equipped they are to handle an actual "situation."Then again, I'm generalizing; I'm sure there are plenty of decent cops out there.

    I have nothing against police in general, for the record. The place would be a right mess without them.
     
  13. Neha
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    Neha Beyond Infinity. Contributor

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    I sometimes wonder at how fragile a system democracy is. One department e.g. the police, stops working and the whole sytem will crash.
     
  14. Speedy
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    Speedy Contributing Member Contributor

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    Was this a policeman or one of those Transit police officers

    (im not sure what state of Australia your in)

    If its the later, i don;t like them!
     
  15. Benska
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    Benska Member

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    I'm not too sure, I think he may have just been a security guard from the nearby shopping centre, but there was a police car parked nearby. Didn't get a good look at him because he wouldn't come within about 50 metres of us, lol.

    I'm in NSW, by the way.
     
  16. Mercurial
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    Mercurial Contributing Member Contributor

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    The police system here in Indiana confuses me. I appreciate what they do, but you cant tell who's a cop in the capital. Just today on my drive down, there was a man standing in the middle of an intersection on a major parkway in a blue suit. It resembled a police uniform, but I wouldnt have thought it was a police uniform except that he was directing (some very confused) drivers through the traffic. On the side of the road was his black and white car, but it had no decals or lights on top...

    I didnt know whether to report it or not... :p
     
  17. Leaka
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    Leaka Creative Mettle

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    I think the police here have control issues. And I think they have some problems with the idea that they are better then everyone else. I think they abuse their power. And I think they just are here to stand and look pretty. Yeah I haven't had a good time with the police here in America.
    I get picked on very easily.
    This girl and I got into a verbal scant, not my fault they just start call me names I need to defend myself.
    Well she took it to a whole new level, she punched me in the face and chipped my tooth.
    I'm the one with the bloody nose and when we were all done talking to the police, they said they couldn't figure out who was telling the truth.
    Um bloody nose, chipped tooth, hello.
    Then at school we had a drug scandal that I wasn't even involved in.
    The police listened to the voice of reason of the students who were doing drugs as I was there with them.
    He made me take some stupid test.
    And they never notified my parents or anything.
    Like this was some big secrecy thing and the school was on some floating island.
    Yeah police, I don't like them.
     
  18. LordKyleOfEarth
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    LordKyleOfEarth Contributing Member Contributor

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    This was one of the things I was wondering about. I'm not 100% sure that is true. Yes, for a brief while you would see an increase in 'crime' but then, I am willing to bet, it will drop back off. People will defend themselves and their property. You would see self policing and I think that is just as effective of a deterrent.

    I again agree with your point. There is never an officer around when you need one. I attribute this to two issues: 1) There are only so many officers and they cannot be everywhere at once. 2) Economics. An officer on patrol (for crime) is costing the department money. An officer on traffic duty is generating funds. Therefore it makes sense to set most of your force on traffic detail.

    The problem there is that it generates a feedback loop. You make more money so you can hire more officers. The larger police force (and associated expenses from cars, equipment, etc.) requires more funding to operate, so more are placed on to traffic detail.

    Now there are fewer officers on the streets and you see a drop in response times and deterrents to crime. The increase in crime requires more officers (so that patrols can be increased) which means more officers must be recruited.

    More officers means that expenses go up, so more officers are needed on traffic duty... and so on and so forth.

    My point in all of this is: Do we really NEED the police?
     
  19. LordKyleOfEarth
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    LordKyleOfEarth Contributing Member Contributor

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    Understood, I set out ground rules in hopes of making you life easier :)
     
  20. lordofhats
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    lordofhats Contributing Member

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    Lets do away with law enforcement and see how long civilization lasts.

    The reason an officer is never around when you need one is because there are only so many officers. They can have everyone wandering around doing nothing, or they can have a few guys on patrol, while the others wait in reserve at certain locations ready to move when needed. It's actually much more efficient response time wise to have your police force stationary in a central location rather than wandering all about every which way. By placing yourself in one spot you reduce the need for communication, and can quickly dispatch officers to location. It actually saves time and money not to have them all driving around. The ones driving around aren't even necessarily on patrol either. Their just response cars that move from one place to the next with the off chance something will happen nearby and they can get in ahead of the rest of the police to get things rolling.

    Also, they don't do traffic detail to boost their funds. Tickets don't go to the police department they go to the county or the state (In the US anyway), who can use the money however they please (though I do think government officials outside the department encourage police to hand out more tickets to boost revenue). The state of Virginia practically finances it's entire public works system with tickets. Don't speed in Virginia, trust me. Highest ticket values in the US and they love handing them out if your breaking even the most miniscule traffic law!

    Regardless, response time in the US, is very good compared to other parts of the world, even some european nations, and believe it or not, the US law enforcement system is one of the least corrupt in the world. I think only a few nations are ahead of us, and I'm pretty sure they were the UK, the Scandinavia nations, Switzerland, and Canada. The only problem with the law enforcement system in the US is the same one with the Education system. Not enough money. Our law enforcement system is horribly underfunded (At the state/county level. The Federal level of law enforcement is about right imo). Even in spite of being underfunded we still have it very good compared to other parts of the world. The longest I have ever had to wait for police is three minutes; and that was because you're apparently not suppose to call 911 for traffic accidents where no one is injured and they had to relay the message to the police station which probably took a minute to a minute thirty seconds..

    I rather have a cop show up late than have no cops at all. Besides, get rid of police and you basically live in an anarchy. Everyone does whatever they please and we might as well just rename ourselves Somalia, Laos or Chad... you know. Those places where the government has no means of asserting it's authority and maintaing any degree of order. Don't take police for granted. They don't have to be on the scene to deter crime. Simply existing keeps many people from doing anything foolish.
     
  21. de locke
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    de locke Senior Member

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    ^^^ Well said
     
  22. LordKyleOfEarth
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    LordKyleOfEarth Contributing Member Contributor

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    I think civilization would do just fine. People want to live. People will act rationally 9/10 times (OK, maybe 8/10, but that is still pretty good). Law enforcement is a bit rampant these days. To illustrate this, let us assume 'laws' are agreed upon social standards which exist to curb the existence of crime. We, for this example, will define two classes of 'crime'

    1 – Capital crime. Capital crimes are crimes which violate the sanctity of a person's life. Capital crimes disrupt society. Murder, rape, theft, assault are examples of capital crimes.

    2 – Social crime. Social crimes are crimes which, for one reason or another, are taboo or otherwise unacceptable in a society. These do not directly affect the public's greater good. Speeding, sexual deviancy (homosexual relations, consensual sex acts outside an acceptable age range, bestiality), drug/alcohol regulations.

    Initially we created police to stop capital crimes, because such a system is needed for the development of a larger/stronger society. However, how many Officers ever stop or prevent a capital crime over the course of their career? Most often an officer is occupied dealing with social issues. Disagree? Ask yourself what percentage of the penal system is occupied with social versus capital issues? I think that if social crimes were reduced or eliminated, the number of needed officers would drop as well (or stay the same and response times could improve).
     
  23. de locke
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    de locke Senior Member

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    so if you take away the police then whos going to prevent murders and violent acts? I think it's naieve to suggest society could function without some form of law enforcing authority.
     
  24. Leaka
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    Leaka Creative Mettle

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    Yeah, but look at this way.
    Because we enforce laws people commit murders and acts of violence.
    Because we tell people no, they say yes.
    People want to break the rules.
     
  25. lordofhats
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    lordofhats Contributing Member

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    No it wouldn't. Find me a nation in the world that doesn't have any law enforcement but does just fine. You can't because there are none. In these nations that 1 out of the ten will never be stopped and will be free to do as they please. Hence, warlords, terrorists, and drug lords are born. They amass all the power and all the wealth because they have the will to do it and the other 9 of the ten do not or lack the capacity to protect themselves. A nation without police falls apart not because people commit crime but because there is no one to stop those who do; and don't give me that speech about how someone will rise from the masses and save the day. It won't happen cause if it did no one would have invented police in the first place. It's not like batman is waiting around every corner (though if he was, that would be totally awesome...). It doesn't stop there though. Once one guy gets going, another is going to get fed up and start doing whatever they want as well. This system breeds a never ending loop of back and forth as everyone figuratively fist fights with everyone else just to survive and thus we have nations like Somalia, Laos, Rwanda etc. Every nation that lacks a means of enforcement falls into chaos.

    Look at the fall of Rome? As soon as the Roman government lost it's ability to maintain the empire everything fell apart. No one can argue that society can survive without a means of enforcing it's laws because it's a well known fact it can't. Heck, the definition of a civilization requires that a civilization have a code of law and a means of enforcing that law.

    False. Laws are not erected just to curb crime they are erected to set out a standardized system of problem solving and problem resolution and are not limited merely to crime. The law is defined as "a system of institutions and coded rules by which a society is governed, maintained, and protected." Law exists because without it society can not function. The police exist to make sure that people know that, obey the law, and to punish the violators. Who will find, catch, and arrest the violators if there are no police?

    Yes. Someone driving down a 50 mph road at 120 isn't a threat to public safety in any way.

    Speed limits exist to keep people from hurting themselves and others. Now, going over ten? You probably won't hurt anyone unless your stupid or drunk, but police have to enforce the limit anyway or as the good saying goes "give them ten miles they'll take twenty" so on and so forth. The speed limit must be enforced to prevent people from thinking they can drive at any speed with out any possible consequences. Convince someone they'll get a ticket going five miles over, only the dumbest of individuals will actually go ten over.

    You're break down of crime is completely illogical. Murder only effects the person murdered and their direct friends and family. Society won't notice Mrs. Craft age 23, with husband and one child is dead. Society won't care i was robbed blind, or than my neighbor was raped. All tragedies yes but they don't disrupt society in any way. I'm generalizing of course. Rampant crime certainly disrupts society, but one lone crime does not. A man who kills his wife doesn't really disrupt anything but his family and friends. A serial killer who murders 50 people disrupts society. EDIT: Let me rephrase that. 50 men murdering their wives disrupts society. They are capital crimes yes but you have misdefined the term. Capital crime refers to crimes worthy of capital punishments (long prison sentences or the death penalty).

    Also false. No police force is founded on the basis that you can stop capital crime. Such crimes occur so fast that for the most part they cannot be stopped. That's why detectives and investigative units exist within the police force (In the US. In some nations the enforcement and investigative parts of law enforcement are separate institutions). The police force as a whole, actually exists to deal with what you have called social crime.

    Don't confuse facts. Yes there are more social violators than capital violators. That's because people will break laws with a smaller penalty more often than they will ones with a heavy penalty. Want people to stop breaking laws? Mandatory death sentence for everything. Everyone will be so scared of dying they'll never step out of line. Of course that's just me talking. Death sentence for everything though it would probably work is immoral. Most crimes don't deserve a harsh punishment and shouldn't have them... that and there is the occasional fowl up. How many of us have broken a law without intending too? I'm sure it's happened to quite a few at least once.

    You seem to miss the point of police. Society cannot function without them, because without them, no one can keep that society together. It will break apart and shatter as soon as one person goes to far, and forces everyone else to start doing the same just to survive.

    Possibly, but why do you argue that we get rid of police and then suggest we just do away with the law and keep them around? What's the point of having them then? It seems to me your problem isn't with police it's with the laws they enforce. As they say, don't hate the player hate the game.

    So rape, robbery and murder are rampant in many third world countries because the laws say it's illegal? How so, seeing how there is absolutely no punishment for breaking laws because there are no police to enforce them (or the police are corrupt and paid not to). People don't break laws because we say don't do it (your confusing society with teenage rebellion). People break laws because by stealing and taking what they want they can get ahead and have everything they want. As the Greeks once said, and the Bible, and the Roman's agreed. Pride is the source of all evil. People break laws to get what they want, not because we tell them not too. When getting what you want involves stealing which inevitably leads to other things, it disrupts society and you need rules and people to enforce those rules to hold the hull together.
     
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