The Private Lives of Orcs

Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by Nidhogg, Jun 28, 2016.

  1. halisme

    halisme Contributor Contributor

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    I hope this is useful.

    • Does the Dark Lord give out orders?
    • Does he have shrines?
    • What symbols are associated with it?
    • Does it have priests, and if so, are they clan based or do the migrate?
    • How do they view those that don't follow the Dark Lord? What about those of of a different race that do?
    • Considering the lack of resources, what art is most common?
    • Is there any art associated with funerals or births?
    • If the tribes are migratory, how do they carry it with them?
    • Who's the head of each family?
    • How many people are there in each family?
    • Rules of inheritance?
    • Do they marry?
    • Who do they ally with and why?
    • Who are they enemies with and why?
    • Do they trade with anyone? (Steel would be a pretty good thing to sell to them.)
    Housing
    As they're migratory I'm assuming carts and tents, so the only question is what resources are used?
     
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  2. TyrannusRex

    TyrannusRex Active Member

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    This is cool!
    I'm still curious, though, as to the role of females (if there are any). Someone mentioned something earlier about different ages doing different things, and if a female decided not to bear children, she could become a warrior. Could you potentially wind up with a female warlord? This essentially poses the question of how orcs see gender roles and if women are given that much freedom. (I'd imagine that if they saw a woman that tough, they'd let her do whatever she wants regardless!)
     
  3. Nidhogg

    Nidhogg Member

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    Oooh, those are very useful indeed! I'll take some time to go over those in my head before posting anything.

    I do however want to bring up the subject of marriage. The orcs so far have been characterised as having a strong drive for hierarchy, with their main relationships based on superiors, inferiors, and fellow clan members. They also have lifespans that likely rarely get to a state of old age, and they don't have the pressures of maintaining a family to deal with. I'm therefore wondering how they would deal with the concept of marriage. Assuming there is no gender discrimination, I would highly doubt that either individual would want to be the inferior member in such a relationship, whilst both would like the idea of being the superior individual. Marriage could therefore lead to a great deal of tension.

    Instead of a lifelong relationship based on love and respect, orcs may instead have shorter relationships based on the drive to reproduce, with secondary reasoning based on clan alliances. A male of one clan could mate with a female of another clan, with the offspring split amongst both clans. In this way, the bond is one of resources and strengthening the clan, with the pair only staying as a pair until the female has given birth.

    In terms of relationships, I had a thought just after I posted last. With war being a key part of their lives, perhaps the orcs view humans as their mortal enemies of battle? In this way, some orcs would deeply hate humans and see them as 'the bad guys', whilst others would see them as willing combatants in the life-war, and others may just see them as the receiving ends of their blades as part of their lifestyle.

    I'm still not decided on the other greenskins, as I haven't developed their cultures and behaviour too much yet. The original plan was that all four of the green races were taken by the Dark Lord and used as its forces, and over time they have all formed uneasy but relatively stable alliances with one another. However, with the low resources and shared territory, I wonder how feasible this would be. The ogres and trolls couldn't provide that much in terms of immediate resources, but the goblins provide a lot of the workforce in the mines and they are also eaten by the other races, so they're pretty much covered.
     
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  4. TyrannusRex

    TyrannusRex Active Member

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    I can imagine the reception at an orc wedding. (Everyone grab a bludgeon! It's time to kill dinner!) Actually, a marital hunt would be a very good tradition...
    Meanwhile, the sign outside the temple reads "Join Us in Warship" :superlaugh:
    Also, do orcs view goblins/other greenskins as entirely lesser or only slightly incompatible? For example, would a goblin be viewed as a suitable mate? (Just asking, 'cause in LOTR, Saruman bred orcs with goblins to create Uruk-hai.)
    (And is it just me, or do you guys feel that the word "greenskin" could be viewed as offensive, like "redskin"? That could be a slur the humans use.)
     
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  5. Nidhogg

    Nidhogg Member

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    @TyrannusRex glad you like the ideas :)

    With gender equality, my main argument for it in orcs is that the same pressures that caused inequality in early humans are not as intense in orcs. One theory as to how gender roles started is that because human women are pregnant for 9 months, then breastfeed the child for a further (recommended) maximum of 2 years, they are practically incapacitated from being hunters and foragers for the entirety of that time. The low number of children that humans have also contributed, as women were (in essence) a valuable resource, and as such they were protected and treated differently from the more expendable males.

    With orcs however, they have more children that develop quicker and are pregnant for a shorter duration of time (let's say 6-7 months instead of 9). Because of this, orc females are capable of contributing to society more, and because they have multiple litters, they are less of a resource.

    If this was the case, then a female Orc could very well choose to become a warlord (not a warlady though... maybe a warlass?). To orcs, the human gender roles are seen as kind of pointless at first: you're stopping 50% of your population from even being considered to go to battle, thus greatly reducing your army size. Plus, you're determining from genitalia alone that 50% of your population is inferior, instead of figuring it out the old fashioned way by bludgeoning each other into submission.
     
  6. TyrannusRex

    TyrannusRex Active Member

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    Ah, I love a good bludgeoning in the morning! Wakes you up, gets you moving. :D
     
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  7. Nidhogg

    Nidhogg Member

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    Greenskin is likely a human term; I don't think orcs would take offense though, because it's just describing the colour of their skin- if you wanted to insult an orc, you'd call them weak or cowardly.

    I feel there would be a degree of generalization, especially as a goblin couldn't be a warlord. The orcs could potentially just view the other Greenskins as 'others' outside of their classification, sort of like how we may react if we were asked what the social class of a horse was.

    Edit: @TyrannusRex in response to cross breeding, I imagine it would be possible, but likely wouldn't be something that is promoted. Hybridization is a risky business, and I imagine it would be quite hard to try and seduce a troll :p
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2016
  8. halisme

    halisme Contributor Contributor

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    That's damn interesting.

    One thousand years later... "And so, it is with great pride, we can declare that green skin has been added to the list of racial slurs."

    Anyway, done with the jokes. Instead of interclan marriages, they could always just kidnap them. Of course that's if you're going for the more barbaric culture.
     
  9. Nidhogg

    Nidhogg Member

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    I guess marriage could have two forms- clan alliance and clan conflict. With the latter, a female is kidnapped, bedded, and then kept prisoner until the younglings no longer rely on her. She is then returned to her clan unharmed or killed and eaten. If she kills the newborns, she is killed and eaten anyway.
     
  10. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    Or occasionally the male?
     
  11. Nidhogg

    Nidhogg Member

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    I'd imagine so, if a clan is lacking in fertile males that are unrelated to the females. I imagine this would happen in smaller clans that have less contact with other orcs.
     
  12. TyrannusRex

    TyrannusRex Active Member

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    This is a good foray into the development of human marriage:
    1) Marriage by Capture: Some guy gets his strong-armed friend (the best man) to help kidnap his bride, then hide her away until her kinsmen tire of looking for her (the honeymoon).
    2) Marriage by Arrangement/Purchase: The groom appeals to the bride's father/family and may pay him with money or livestock (the wed) in order to marry his daughter. So, when the bride is given away, she is literally being sold.
    3) Marriage by Love: As we know it today, only arose around the 1700s.
     
  13. Nidhogg

    Nidhogg Member

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    That's an interesting way of looking at it! I wonder if orcs could even feel a sense of love allowing them the potential to marry because of love in their future.

    Today I was thinking about potential orc ceremonies. The names are temporary at the moment.
    Beggar's Dance: a dance/fighting ritual that originated from watching goblins fighting one another over resources, the beggar's dance is a social event designed to improve melee fighting, reflexes, and also aid in establishing hierarchy without resorting to physical violence. The dance itself is like a mixture of capoeira and the game 'ninja', with two individuals surrounded in a ring, and each of them trying to hit the opponent whilst also dodging incoming hits. The dance ends when one person is hit.

    Pairing Hunt: this hunt is done to signify the pairing of two individuals for mating purposes. A relatively small ritual, it involves the pair being chained together at either the ankles or the wrists (e.g. The male's left arm connected to the female's right arm) and hunting down their 'wedding' feast. A successful hunt indicates that the children formed from the union will be healthy. An unsuccessful hunt indicates the children will be grunts or stillborn. A hunt primarily successful due to one member of the pairing is seen as negative on the inferior mate, meaning they are less likely to mate in the future.

    Flaming sword: led by the clan chief, children become adults during this ritual. A blade is heated until almost red hot, and the child is ordered to pick up the blade and raise it above their head and roar in triumph. Following this ritual, the children are given a day's rest to heal their burnt palms. Children that do not complete this task are treated as slaves, and are not brought onto the battlefield on any circumstances.

    Funerals: orcs don't have funerals really. Orc flesh is a valuable resource, as our bones as building tools (bone marrow is also a good source of food). Orcs of high status have their skulls removed and placed alongside other skulls of similar warriors in a designated location, usually near the hut of the clan chief.
     
  14. Nidhogg

    Nidhogg Member

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    Sorry for bringing this thread up again, but I'm having difficulties with one of the other races in this Orc world and I felt that here was the best place to post about it. The four main races of the greenskin group are goblins, ogres, trolls, and orcs (kind of like an inverse of the Lord of the Rings races). I've got three figured out, but am having issues deciding on what the trolls will be like.

    Below are the races with their hierarchies of needs (inspired by @Simpson17866 ) as well as cultural info on goblins and ogres (feel free to ask for more info on any of them).


    Humans
    Hierarchy of Needs: survival, safety, belonging, esteem, specialness

    Orcs
    Hierarchy of Needs: survival, relationships, safety, specialness, esteem

    Goblins
    Hierarchy of Needs: belonging, esteem, safety, survival, specialness
    Goblins are inherently social organisms, and could arguably be defined as colonial organisms due to their codependency on one another. A lone goblin is often an ill or insane goblin, as they will typically be found in groups of at least 3 individuals. Goblin groups- known as clutches when small, and plagues when large- work together as a single unit, arguably more organised than any military force that an orc or man could put together. Whilst not that smart when alone, in groups they are capable of great feats, such as their expansive subterranean villages that litter the northern mountain ranges. Goblins have no specific clans or colonies, and clutch members swap with one another constantly, ensuring that goblins have high diversity in skills and experiences. The goblins of the Dark Lord's realm are seen somewhat as being isolated, as they haven't had the chance to interact with southern goblins for quite some time.

    Ogres
    Hierarchy of Needs: safety, survival, specialness, esteem, belonging
    It's easy to see why ogres are considered idiots of the Greenskins; they have a poor grasp of languages, can't handle delicate objects, and lack the same understanding of social interaction of orcs and goblins. However, this isn't due to them being stupid, but in fact due to the way that their minds work. Firstly, ogres have little in the sense of body language, and as such any body language performed by other creatures is seen as either amusing or unneeded, equivalent to someone flailing their arms around whilst talking. Secondly, ogres lack their own home language- they can be taught languages, but they learn these from scratch, in a similar way to how a dog may learn what certain words mean. They are generally social creatures, meaning that they also find large groups unnerving, having an innate sense of agoraphobia. Ogres lack much in the form of culture- in terms of sapient beings, ogres are more akin to highly intelligent parrots than anything else; they can do things and act like sapient beings, but there's not much reasoning behind it beyond personal gain, and they have no cultural experiences to work on.

    Then we get to trolls, and I haven't got the slightest idea what to do with them. My immediate thoughts were that they could be magic-based with a culture based on gaining and hoarding knowledge, but that seems both shallow in quality and also I'm considering changing how magic works, so I'd rather not base the trolls on something that might not be there. As I said earlier, the four races may be based on the LOTR 'good' races:

    Orc = Man
    Ogre = Dwarves
    Goblin = Halfling
    Troll = ???

    If I continue with this, then the trolls would be akin to this world's version of elves, Wizards, or something else entirely. I'm open to any and all ideas, seeing as all I have on the trolls is that they fear lightning, might have a natural affinity for magic, and are relatively intelligent.
     
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  15. TyrannusRex

    TyrannusRex Active Member

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    Hmm...
    Troll=Giant?
    LOTR didn't have giants, but then again, its trolls (and Jackson's ogres from BOTFA) are more or less animals that need to be shown what to do, with the notable exception of Stone-Trolls (Bert, Tom, and William) who possessed human-level (albeit meager) intelligence, an ability to speak Common, and usage of tools.
    It sounds like the troll (and possibly ogre) you're going for are akin to those in D&D. If I recall correctly (and it's been a while) the trolls are very human-like (Sasquatch-like in size), have a loose culture, and can become great sorcerors, whereas ogres can speak, use tools, etc., but they don't have much of a culture, living alone, in pairs or small groups, essentially having the two speeds of "Stop" and "Bash Your Face In".
    (Unless you could make something clever like this line from Dungeon Master Howard in an episode of TBBT: "You killed my brother... now Ogre Thanksgiving is ruined...")

    EDIT: Here's a chart I found that hits on quite a few troll subspecies!
    http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/1/19/Trolls.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20131203111353
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2016
  16. Nidhogg

    Nidhogg Member

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    @TyrannusRex I had a look at the D&D trolls, and from what I could find I couldn't find much about their culture besides them being greedy and following a god of destruction.
     
  17. TyrannusRex

    TyrannusRex Active Member

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    My bad, I got those mixed up. I'm going off of A Practical Guide to Monsters (Part of the Practical Guide series of D&D books from c. 2007):
    Troll
    Trolls have no fear of death, and with good reason. Not only are they too dim-witted to recognize true threats, but they are able to regrow any body part lost in battle, including their heads... If caught in battle with a troll, tossing a bag of rations in the troll's direction may allow you time to flee the scene.
    Ogre
    Ogres solve problems by smashing them. If they do not succeed in smashing, they will simply run away... Ogres live in tribes of about eight, loosely ruled by a chieftain... These ugly monsters trust no one- not even members of their own tribe- and frequently erupt into violent arguments over a scrap of rotten meat or a coin found loose in the lair.
    Ogre Mage
    Far more intelligent than its cousin the ogre, the ogre mage can easily defeat a foe with a powerful spell... The ogre mage prefers a solitary life, rarely associating with any members of its kind, except for members of its own family, known as a clan. The father of a clan wields enormous power over his wife and children, often treating them like slaves... When a father passes on, the eldest son assumes control of the clan and the treasure.
     
  18. Gadock

    Gadock Active Member

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    Wow that was one big pile of informations I've just been through :p

    I've got a few suggestions though.

    Marriage:
    Why have marriage at all? There's an monkey/ape kind -of which I can't remember the name of- and their social structure is based on who can f*** who, basically. The Alpha can do its stuff with everyone, male or female. Due to their lovingness no-one knows who's child is who's (males), and all take care of all children. This way females help a lot more, since their young are not that dependent on them, but of the collective of the group. This could also work for you, this would make male orcs more caring than before, but it would give the females more freedom.


    Religion:
    Didn't really read that much about religion yet, but maybe make it Norse mythology? When they go in to battle and die in the field, only then they'll be able to join the heroes in Valhalla. Make a God of War type, real or not (or maybe the dark lord?), and make them follow for glory. When it comes to religion it's impossible to leave priests out, and here you could make group leaders also spiritual leaders. This would presumably cause more bloodlust, I think.

    Housing:
    Again, why have housing at all? :p This might sound stupid, and I'm really not that well known in orcs, but aren't they very close to earth? So wouldn't this cause them to be coldblooded? You could resemble them to crocodiles, which remain a rather stable core temperature; the temperature of their digestive system only differ about 4 degree celsius, whereas the rest of the body can easily differ 20 degrees. If they're resistant to weather they won't needed to bring heavy tents or alikes, their movement would significantly increase.

    Entertainments and Arts:
    I think most obvious Art would be body art, you could have the more artistic orcs doing these things on more regular bases. This could be done for war -like in LotR- or marital, religious, or any event type.

    Interspecie hybridisation:
    If all 4 of your species can reproduce together, will their offspring too? Often hybrid animals are sterile, and seen the difference between Ogres and Goblin (creating Oglins?) be quite significant. These is also comparable to when Whales and Dolphins mate, or Donkeys and Horses; all the hybrids are sterile. When looking at dogs though, they're all the same species; all of their offspring can reproduce no matter the combination.

    This is all for now ^^
     
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  19. TyrannusRex

    TyrannusRex Active Member

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    Interesting points... also:
    1) You're thinking of bonoboes, also called dwarf chimpanzees, the most sexually promiscuous higher mammal you'll find (aside from humans). Bonoboes of all ages and sexes will engage in intercourse/mock intercourse to prevent arguments within the troop. ("I hate you! Let's f***!")
    2) I don't think there's a plausible way to make orcs cold-blooded (besides the fact that they're typically portrayed as mammalian), because an animal that actively hunts and chases after prey (as orcs have been shown to do) and have quick reaction time during combat needs to maintain its own internal body temperature. A cold-blooded orc wouldn't be nearly as fearsome a fighter; just attack at night or in the early morning and you're guaranteed a win. And no, they couldn't just keep bonfires lit for heat, because someone would need to run around and do that. An active, hunting, Tolkien-esque orc needs to be warm-blooded.
    3) Wouldn't orc entertainment merely be gladiatorial matches? Or, perhaps, like in Shadow of Mordor, different rank-advancing activities/ceremonies such as dueling between two captains and their war parties, a beast hunt, a gladiatorial match against a beast, publicly executing enemies taken prisoner/traitors, etc., or simply having a great feast to honor the Dark Lord.
    4) Fertile mules and fertile wolphins have occurred, it's just extremely unlikely.
     
  20. Nidhogg

    Nidhogg Member

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    Thank you for the interesting discussion!

    @Gadock I like the suggestions of a bobobo-esque marriage/sex system, and feel it would work really well in this kind of setting.
    As tyrannus said, being cold-blooded wouldn't work well for orcs, so they'd have to be warm blooded.
    I'm trying to avoid too much body art with these orcs, instead favoring cosmetics that also have practical aspects in war, such as bone helmets and the like. This is because the orcs are rather practical and somewhat lacking in abstract thought; in other words, they wouldn't see art as a pursuit worth delving into unless it's for their clan banners.

    In regards to the hybridization, I imagine that they'd interbreed and the offspring would be infertile, likely for a similar reason to why mules are bred; they serve a purpose better. For example, the warg riders of this setting need to have good teamwork skills and be small in stature, but must also have the military mindset of the Orc. So, one could have a goblin and Orc mate to produce Oglins (as you call them) and have them act as warg riders. Alternatively, you may need something like an ogre, but need the ogre to have better regenerating capabilities, therefore mating an ogre with a troll.
     
  21. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    It certainly fits with the "relationships trump structure" Hierarchy you came up with ;)
     
  22. Gadock

    Gadock Active Member

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    @Nidhogg I'm glad you like my idea ^^ about selective breeding though, looking at dogs, I think you'd be far better able to selective breed if you can breed from the offspring. The body paint came into mind due to the Uruk-Hai, they only used it for psychological warfare. But I believe someone commented about this before too, just can't find it nor recall exactly.
     
  23. TyrannusRex

    TyrannusRex Active Member

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    What if an orc were to breed with a human by some means?
    I'd imagine the resulting offspring (or the result of orcs raising an abandoned human baby) would be one of Scrotus' guys from Mad Max. (On a related note, the body paint on those guys!)
    Lastly, on hybridization: I remember Tolkien mentioning creatures called halftrolls, which I assume were supposed to be orc/troll, but could also have been human/troll, which is weird because Tolkien's trolls (generally) aren't viewed as very human-like. These guys fought with the Haradrim, though, so who knows what went on down there.
     
  24. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    Would "by some means" include a human and an orc falling in love and having a child?

    [last 3 panels]
     
  25. halisme

    halisme Contributor Contributor

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    By god, that comics been going for so long I can't remember the plotline that's happening at that point.
     

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