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  1. Mans
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    Mans Contributing Member

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    The spokeswoman of the Iranian Foreign Minister statement

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Mans, Jan 8, 2015.

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    The spokeswoman of the Iranian Foreign Minister, condemned today terroristic attack in Paris and opined; every terroristic action versus faultless humans is against the doctrines of Islam.

    Miss.Afkham, also told that misusing the freedom of expression, extremes of thought, assassination of religious and national figures, defamation of divinely religions, defamation of the respectable values and symbols of such religions is condemned and unacceptable.

    She in respond to the Paris event said : “ Such behaviors is a sequence of an unprecedented extremism and mental-physical violence which has been developed across the world, in past two decades, and unfortunately due to the wrong policy and two type of encountering with violence and extremism, causes such behaviors and actions in the world.”

    She also reiterated on the idea of the president of Islamic Republic of Iran about “ a world free or extremism and violence”, expressed the hope that the leaders of countries in the world treat the root of the violence and extremism factors by consolation, making an integrated determination and avoiding of dual approach and standards.
     
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  2. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Hi @Mans, thank you for sharing this.

    I'm not sure we would agree on the limits of free expression but I respect other opinions. It's encouraging to hear condemnation of senseless killing.


    On another note, I recently read that the belief no images of Mohammad should be depicted was a Sunni belief. I'm curious if you think that's true.
     
  3. stevesh
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    stevesh Banned Contributor

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    @Mans - long time no see. Welcome back.

    I strongly agree with what @GingerCoffee almost said about free expression. "Condemned and unacceptable", yes, but permitted in a free society and not punishable by death at the hands of backward savages. I'm a little disappointed by the 'blame the victim' mentality I've heard expressed by too many people and press outlets in the wake of this outrage.
     
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  4. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Thanks for this @Mans, it's good to see Iran condemn these awful actions.
     
  5. Charisma
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    Charisma Transposon Contributor

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    I don't know if it's chiefly a Sunni belief, but generally, images of beings with souls (so man and beasts) are prohibited in Islam.

    Source:
    (For those who are interested, a Sahih has the greatest authenticity in terms of tradition. Authenticity is determined by the merit and length of chain of narrators, and how closely it resembles across the narrators. It's not as simple as that, but yeah, I guess you're bored by now anyway).

    Also, obviously, terrorism has no place in Islam. Granted, I vehemently oppose the idea of depicting insulting imagery, whether it's Kali Mata or Jesus or Mohammad, because imo that's not freedom of expression--that's hurting other people's sentiments for no reason (again, this is my opinion) other than mockery. If a person disagrees with another, one should employ civil debate and argument, not hurtful comments or pictures. Anyway, it goes without saying murder and riots are no way of showing disapproval, instead, enlightened debates and nonviolent protests--perhaps a letter appealing to international bodies such as UN--should lead the way. Not this barbaric nonsense.
     
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  6. Chinspinner
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    Chinspinner Contributing Member Contributor

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    People have the right to cause offence and frankly all things should be held up to scrutiny and ridicule, even someone's cherished but slightly absurd religion.

    As Stevesh said, I find the 'blame the victim' mentality disturbing. There is a creeping culture of thought crime and self-censorship because people are so dam scared of causing offence these days. Perhaps we should hold up a mirror to those people who choose to take offence and require that they amend their ways.
     
  7. Charisma
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    Charisma Transposon Contributor

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    I don't think making a caricature or saying "your prophet sucks! LOL" is scrutiny of an absurd religion--I think it's just ignorance and does not serve to highlight the illogical facets of a religion. It would make more sense if one would defend an article/book which asks why the Prophet (PBUH) did this or did that, than a book that just makes an illustration of him as a terrorist. That's my opinion, anyhow.

    Also, freedom of expression goes both ways. If someone says something because they have every right, the other has every right not to like it. Not everyone who causes offense or takes offense is in the right, but if they both have equal rights, we should hold the mirror to both of them or neither of them. This doesn't mean what the terrorists did in Paris was okay, anymore than what arsonists* did in Germany was fine. Neither act is condonable. But saying whatever you want and taking offense come as a package.

    *It's amusing that when one sets fire to a mosque, it's arson, but when Muslims attack a newspaper, it's terrorism.
     
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  8. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    It's easy for you an I in the United Kingdom to not really see the point of religion, and live without even noticing it exists. The UK is a very secular country, unlike Islamic cultures were Islam is a much more pressing, much more obvious part of day-to-day life. We may think we can say what we want about Islam and any negative reaction to what we say is the other guy's fault for being such a sensitive idiot, but that's exactly the difference of culture that is causing all this trouble. These people take cartoons of the prophet seriously, because to them the prophet is a serious image - and this honouring of what is holy is what is essentially lost in our increasingly secular culture. But it is only our culture, western secular culture.

    You'll find that. Western media is astoundingly biased.
     
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  9. Chinspinner
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    Chinspinner Contributing Member Contributor

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    But my point was that currently freedom of expression seems to overwhelmingly work in only one direction; and that is to avoid causing offence. I am not just talking about the French cartoonists when I say that; in this country if a politician makes an impromptu but ill-conceived remark there are instant calls for their resignation because some flatulent moron somewhere has chosen to take offence.

    We need to remove the assumption that just because someone is offended they automatically occupy the moral high ground. They don't. Just because you are offended does not mean that you are right.

    I agree on the terrorism/ arson thing though.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2015
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  10. stevesh
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    stevesh Banned Contributor

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    You're right, though the US is , nominally anyway, less secular than the UK, I think. The Christians here take the denigration of Christ (Serrano's Piss Christ and the recent mocking of Jesus on South Park, for example) pretty darn seriously but they don't kill people who offend them. The difference between the civilized man and the savage.
     
  11. Charisma
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    Charisma Transposon Contributor

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    This, I agree with. Sometimes we need to speak the harsh truth, and we need to be critical when analyzing both sides. If anything, these issues should not be flaunted on tabloids and if it is seen as a genuinely offensive, they should take it to a tripartite discussion in a formal setting rather than some manure-flinging contest.

    I suppose I'm reading too much into it, but I must ask for clarity sake--when you compare Christians to the predominant group that is the topic of conversation (Muslims), are you insinuating Christians are civilized while Muslims are not? I take that back if that wasn't your intent--like I said, I had to ask.
     
  12. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    That's something you can only say if you are part of the culture that believes it. I know that might not make sense at first, but consider it. Our definition of what is 'civilized' is not everyone else's.

    Yes, I think this is absolutely right.
     
  13. stevesh
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    stevesh Banned Contributor

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    That was my intent. In this respect (murdering people who mock your deity or his 'prophets') is unique to Islam in the current day. If someone can present examples to the contrary, I'll reconsider.
     
  14. stevesh
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    stevesh Banned Contributor

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    Sorry, but that's the worst kind of relativism. We can't even agree that beheading people who disagree with your religious views isn't uncivilized?
     
  15. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    It might be my at-heart existentialism, but I don't think morals are anything more than human constructions that are agreed by societies. I personally don't like the idea of beheading people, but the universe isn't going to care one way or the other. I don't believe in a god, so I don't believe morals are absolute.
     
  16. stevesh
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    stevesh Banned Contributor

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    Me, neither, so me, neither. We could be arguing about a semantic difference, but if 'the universe isn't going to care one way or another', is there any possible human behavior that you find unacceptable?
     
  17. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Personally, yes. But if I was some alien looking down on us from lightyears away then I imagine my answer would be no.
     
  18. Charisma
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    Charisma Transposon Contributor

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence
    http://www.loonwatch.com/2014/05/jordanian-man-killed-his-daughter-for-converting-to-islam/
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2814685/Man-charged-attack-killed-troopers-son.html
    (And yes, that took less than four clicks.)

    Also, when you accuse a "religion", you must either have a very solid, irrefutable argument--almost like a dogma (yes, the irony)--or you should separate the religion from the many variables you clump with it. Surely an increase in violent, "barbaric" Muslims, has nothing to do with them living in the most socioeconomically depraved circumstances in the world? This is not to defend them, but we saw the flipside centuries ago when Muslims were at the apex of development, and Renaissance had yet not occurred--was Islam or Christianity completely opposite religions at that time, or was it simply the influence of economic stress and lack of enlightenment? I think it's rather ignorant to consider a religion or its people wholly barbaric on a presumption which, frankly speaking, has no basis.
     
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  19. Chinspinner
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    If I was an alien, I would probably wonder why a social animal which has evolved to rely upon reciprocal relationships would act in a manner contrary to its nature due to a human construct like religion.
     
  20. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Same can be said for morals really. I personally don't like the idea of polygamous relationships, but really, there is nothing wrong with the idea.

    Anyway, this should get back on topic. :p
     
  21. matwoolf
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    matwoolf Contributing Member Contributor

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    David Aaronovitch in the Times said something, if I might paraphrase off the top of my head:


    Cowards have no spine to defend our enlightenment principles against fascists and medievalists, instead they cower in the presence of the most cretinous religious dogma of every shade: pathetic, when our belief, our science and our knowledge is that every word of all dark age theology is crap and we can say it's crap because it is crap, crap with every god in heaven, bless all tiny minds because we are educated. We could say this in 1789, and in 1969 you wouldn't even bother. Secular, atheist, I am shopping so stick it up your arse Jesus(pbuh) and beware how toleration of the deeply ignorant makes Charlie Hebdo appear fringe and isolated when really they are at the very heart of us. Tragic.

    Something like that, I need to work on the sense and rhythm, check for racism, perhaps replace the JC clause with Voldemort, if only I had the guts.
     
  22. thirdwind
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    thirdwind Contributing Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    We should keep in mind that extremists like these (and bin Laden and al-Zawahiri) aren't scholars of Islam. They rationalize their behavior and beliefs by any means necessary. If you talk to and/or listen to actual scholars of Islam and the Qur'an, you'll find that they're all against terrorism and acts like this one. Unfortunately, a lot of people, especially Westerners, forget this.
     
  23. Aled James Taylor
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    Aled James Taylor Contributing Member Contributor

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    Let us not forget the fatwa on Salman Rushdie. If this was actually carried out, it would be an act not dissimilar to the one perpetrated in Paris. I wonder what opinion the spokeswoman of the Iranian Foreign Minister would give on this issue, considering the fatwa was issued by the Ayatollah Khomeini, the spiritual leader of Iran. Would she condemn such an act as against the doctrines of Islam?
     
  24. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    You say prohibited by Islam, but that was the thing I was questioning. It's prohibited by one interpretation of Islam, not all Muslims believe the same thing about images of Mohammad. Even if you say, "the most authenticity" there is no such consensus. If there were, you wouldn't see multiple versions of Islam all over the world. This issue came up after the Dutch cartoon controversy.

    Portraiture of Muhammad in Islamic literature
    Further down in the article:
     
  25. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    From what I've been told, this is half right. One feature of Islam is that it is highly interpret-able. I've heard that Islam is different to every Muslim, because each one is expected to read the Qur'an in their own way, because the question with reading the Qur'an is when was each verse written.

    The verses were collected into Suras, and I don't remember them being grouped by any one theme - I could be wrong. The Suras were also organized according to length rather than adhering to any sort of cohesive chronology too. But each verse is a quotation from Muhammad recorded at different times in the development of Islam in Muhammad's day, so the verses about killing non-believers until they are no longer a threat come from times of war. I was told to read the Qur'an as being a set of lessons for different times, so there are verses that are supposed to be read only in war time, verses specifically about public life, verses about the divinity of Allah, and so on and so forth.

    I'm obviously far from even knowledgeable about the Qur'an, though, and that could be total bullshit. But it's what I've been told anyway.
     
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