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  1. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    The underlying current of sexism and hillary clinton

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by GingerCoffee, Jul 29, 2015.

    From the Trump thread where a recent New York Times article falsely claimed the Clinton emails were under a criminal investigation:

    NYT Op Ed: A Clinton Story Fraught With Inaccuracies: How It Happened and What Next?
    If people dislike candidate Clinton yet can't say specifically why except her 'image', the first thought that comes to my mind is an undercurrent of sexism. Not saying that's accurate, and certainly not conscious sexism, but as long as we're drawing conclusions based on 'impressions', well, that's mine.

    I have specific complaints about Clinton, I'm not saying I don't. But Clinton is competent, and she's Progressive, and she's clearly being judged by a different standard than her male counterparts.

    Just like Obama has been treated with serious disrespect by many Republican legislators and even one SCOTUS judge, one can't help but see an apparent undercurrent of racism. The image of Clinton being dishonest and lacking integrity has all that sexist double standard built right in.

    I'm not accusing anyone of outright sexism. I think this kind of undercurrent bias is buried deep within people's subconsciousness. A black President's nationality is questioned when no one blinks at the white candidate Cruz, who truly wasn't born on US soil. A female candidate who hasn't done anything her male counterparts haven't been doing since the beginning of the country becomes criminally dishonest.

    'Sexist' NYT, Politico coverage of Hillary Clinton ripped

    My suggestion, when you find yourself simply disliking Clinton, ask yourself honestly what that is specifically based on.
     
  2. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    Basically an ad hominem argument to explain away disagreement. You're getting desparate. A lot of us who dislike Clinton would love to see Warren at the top of the ticket. So much for the sexism bogeyman.
     
  3. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    So you ignored all the evidence and my arguments and think it has to do with attacking you personally?

    No, just no.

    The Facts: You posted the original NYT article and I asked you if it turned out the article was retracted, would you admit you were wrong? There's no ad hom there. But you are having a hard time admitting you were at least wrong about the false accusation.
     
  4. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    It's just such a predictable canard. It was only a question of when, not if, someone would dredge it up. It's the fallback position for team Clinton when someone doesn't like their candidate.
     
  5. Link the Writer
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    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    So...if I don't like Clinton, but can't think up of a good reason why, that means I clearly hate women and don't want to see the first female US president?

    Well, with that hanging against me, I'm not sure if I need to get further involved in this discussion. I want Sanders to win, but that doesn't mean I hate women and don't want a female US president. That's just bullshit and downright offensive.
     
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  6. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Right, no possible way there's any underlying sexism involved in people's negative perception of Clinton. No way racism could underly some people's reaction to Obama. No way the media could report differently on Clinton.

    No way Chris Matthews ever joked with Tom DeLay about Clinton being a bitch.





    There's an older video of Chris Matthews and Tom DeLay caught with an accidental open mic joking making a sexist joke about Hillary but it's from a decade ago, so I'll have to hunt for it.

    This is not about calling anyone sexist. (I think I said that twice in the OP.) That's a gross oversimplification of subtle influences on our perceptions. This is not about defending Clinton or attacking her attackers. This is about one woman (me) noticing the sexism that permeates just under the surface when it comes to people's perception and media coverage of Clinton, and comparing it to the subtle, unintentional but nonetheless present influence of racism on people's perceptions of Obama. It's a very similar phenomena.
     
  7. Aaron DC
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    Aaron DC Contributing Member

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    How is their sexism if no one's sexist?
     
  8. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    It's an asinine argument, but when that's all you got as the Clinton camp, it starts to sound good.
     
  9. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    It affects our perceptions but it's not conscious and it's not severe enough to call it sexist.

    I think someone like Chris Matthews comes closer to actually being sexist, but he gave a full apology on air for his comments about Clinton's accomplishments only being due to sympathy for her because her husband is an adulterer, and he's been more positive about Clinton since his off camera joking with Tom DeLay was outed.

    I think he's come to recognize that she can stand on her own accomplishments.

    A lot of things affect our perception without us being consciously aware of them. Take for example, a person who isn't racist but doesn't feel entirely safe around a black male dressed in clothes associated with gangs even though the man might not have anything to do with gangs.

    You see a powerful woman and you have a different perception than a powerful man doing the same things and acting the same. It's very common for people to perceive others with these kinds of underlying biases we aren't aware of.

    It doesn't make you sexist or racist. But it's still a good idea to try to identify when it's happening. Denying it usually means the unconscious bias will continue.
     
  10. GingerCoffee
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    Isn't this an actual ad hominem argument? Dismissing what I've posted and said as nothing valid without addressing what I posted?
     
  11. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    Ginger, it seems to me that you always take the liberal side.
     
  12. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    ...
    and?
     
  13. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    What does that have to do with a woman (me) observing undercurrents of sexism?

    Maybe if you experienced sexism or racism or some other kind of systemic discrimination you might have more insight into why people who do experience it speak up.
     
  14. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    Hillary, good. Obama, good. Bush, BAD. It's all so simple to you....

    And even simpler to me, since I think they're all bad
     
  15. GingerCoffee
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    It's like you don't want to think about the issues I brought up in the thread, you can't get past the politics.

    Women on both sides of the isle, in business, in science, all run up against the same effects on how they are perceived. It just happens to be quite pronounced when it comes to Clinton at the moment.

    As a liberal, frankly Bernie Sanders is closer to the ideals I want in a President. I'm not happy with either Bill or Hillary's ties to big business. And I'm not happy that Obama seems to have a few threads tying him to the same corrupt influence.

    But at the same time, Hillary is being judged by a double standard. What might be disappointing about Bill or Obama becomes evil bitch when observed with Hillary.
     
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  16. KaTrian
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    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Hillary both suffers and benefits from being a woman, I think. I remember watching a funny video on YouTube a while back where a guy interviews college students about the upcoming election. Some of them downright admitted the only reason they'd vote for Hillary is because she's a woman and they want to see a woman president.

    I wish she'd be judged based on her merits only, but that's unlikely to happen when you're a woman, especially if you work in a male-dominated field, I'm afraid.
     
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  17. Link the Writer
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    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    You make a true point, and admittedly, there was a time I planned to vote for Clinton simply because she was a woman, not because of her merits.

    To be honest, I have no idea who I really should vote for, and I'm just waiting until the final round to start researching.
     
  18. KaTrian
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    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

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    When we had a woman president, I heard people say they voted for her because of her sex. But she was also an awesome, intelligent president. When we had a gay runner-up, some people voted for him cos they wanted a gay president. He too was a good candidate, no complaints there, although that time he lost by a nose to a more conservative candidate.

    Point being, democracy also allows people to make decisions based on irrelevant traits. And smart people can use this to their advantage by smear-campaigning the candidate of their choice, thus affecting the opinion of a voter who's less interested in digging in deeper.
     
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  19. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    So sexism can still exist even if no one is actually sexist?

    ... and people wonder why I don't call myself a feminist.
     
  20. Adenosine Triphosphate
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    Adenosine Triphosphate Old Scratch Contributor

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    Her gender very obviously colors her public image, so, in that sense, I think you're correct. I'm still not necessarily looking forward to the vote that her alternatives may force me to cast, but that's another story.
     
  21. Adenosine Triphosphate
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    Adenosine Triphosphate Old Scratch Contributor

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    The only real requirement for discrimination is for people to react differently to members of various social groups. Actual bigotry is not necessary, though it tends to appear alongside it.

    Whether that sort of instinctive bias counts as actual racism or sexism is a matter of what definition you use.
     
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  22. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Acting differently to people in different social groups is actually pretty normal. I don't talk to my friends the same way I talk to my boss, and I don't talk to either of them the same way I talk to someone I don't know, especially when I already dislike that person-I-don't-know's political opinions. It's not necessarily 'discrimination', and certainly does not mean it's based on some kind of unconscious misogyny. A lot of the time it seems tumblr feminists are seeing reds under the bed.
     
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  23. Adenosine Triphosphate
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    Adenosine Triphosphate Old Scratch Contributor

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    It's a useful but crude component of human decision-making that renders some level of bias all but inevitable, whether it leads to you favoring your friends or your race. The more generalizations and social codes you absorb, the more your views are colored, and the harder it is to objectively evaluate each individual situation.

    EDIT: Not all generalizations are wrong, of course, but even the more functional forms of top-down thinking have some limitations.
     
  24. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    That's true, but we don't need feminists to use provocative words like 'sexism' to get around that. Why not try humanism, and use words like 'ideology'. Not all progress needs to be the result of some Hegelian pitched battle between world views in order to create a synthesis. Why not just talk to people like people?
     
  25. Link the Writer
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    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    I agree. It's possible to disagree with someone's political views without hating the person's sex or race. Wholly possible.

    Yes, it's true there are idiots who look at Clinton and think she can't possibly win because she's a woman, or those (like me) who are only championing her victory because she's a woman. Both of these scenarios are entirely wrong, and quite frankly, offensive. I'll stop doing the latter and focus on her merits and accomplishments. Like right now. :D
     
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