The use of dashes.. really confusing for me

Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by WritingNoob, May 6, 2011.

  1. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    In most cases it's a stylistic choice. Probably the most common use of dashes in creative writing is to set off a parenthetic clause, and they can all do the same job. E M Forster could have written:
    Except for the Marabar Caves, and they are twenty miles off, the city of Chandrapore presents nothing extraordinary.​
    or:
    Except for the Marabar Caves (and they are twenty miles off) the city of Chandrapore presents nothing extraordinary.​
    or:
    Except for the Marabar Caves---and they are twenty miles off---the city of Chandrapore presents nothing extraordinary.​

    The difference is that they give progressively more prominence to the parenthetic clause. E M Forster chose the last one of those three to start A Passage to India, so the Marabar Caves are set firmly in the reader's mind. If they were not significant to the rest of the book that would be distracting and commas would be more appropriate. But they are crucially important, so drawing them to the reader's attention in this way is a very effective bit of writing. It's not a rule that said to use dashes, it's a matter of effect.

    Incidentally, some text markup programs (notably TeX and its derivatives, but that got it from earlier programs) use '-' for a hyphen, '--' for an en-dash and '---' for an em-dash (as I did above). That's a useful convention in a medium that doesn't support the actual dashes (such as this) but I wouldn't expect them to find their way into MSS.
     
  2. WritingNoob

    WritingNoob New Member

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    ok that helps a little. are there any other explanations?

    what's a parenthetic clause? can the dash symbolise a 'by the way' or 'in addition'?
     
  3. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    noob... instead of asking here, why don't you simply consult a good punctuation guide?... there are many in the bookstores and even good ones on the internet that you can keep in your 'favorites' menu to refer to as needed... googling also produces instant results, instead of waiting here for often conflicting [or incorrect] advice...
     
  4. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    In simple terms, a parenthetic clause is a bit you could take out of the sentence without disturbing the flow or the grammar. Yes, it is a sort of "by the way". In the E M Forster he could have simply written "Except for the Marabar Caves the city of Chandrapore presents nothing extraordinary." The sentence would have made perfect sense that way. It's a bit more complicated than that---there's stuff about it having to have a finite verb although that verb might be elided (missed out) and other stuff like that---but if you'd feel comfortable putting a chunk of the sentence in parentheses there's every chance you could set it off with commas or dashes instead. Oh, and parentheses need to be in pairs, but if the clause is at the end of the sentence you just have the starting comma or dash.
    Except for the Marabar Caves the city of Chandrapore presents nothing extraordinary, and they are twenty miles off.​
    Except for the Marabar Caves the city of Chandrapore presents nothing extraordinary (and they are twenty miles off).
    Except for the Marabar Caves the city of Chandrapore presents nothing extraordinary---and they are twenty miles off.
     
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  5. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    the em dash is shown by only a double hyphen [--], dig... a triple such as you have there would be incorrect punctuation for anything...
     
  6. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    In what context? In MSS I wouldn't expect either to appear; I would expect the correct dash to be used, because all modern word processors can do that. In text markup languages such as TeX and laTeX I can assure you it is as I described; I've used them extensively. In online forums style is less strict; in technical forums the usage from text markup languages is common, and it spills over into non-technical forums. I note that the O'Reilly book Unix Power Tools says that "Typists often use three hyphens ( --- ) for an em-dash, and two ( -- ) for the shorter en-dash."
     
  7. VladimirPutin

    VladimirPutin New Member

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    I use dashes at will without regard for rule when the pacing of a piece requires it.
     
  8. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    the triple may be ok in the uk, but in the us, a double is what's used and expected by agents/publishers/editors... and the reason for using the double hyphen instead of the em dash itself, is because in some fonts, it's too hard to tell a dash from a hyphen, thus with the substitution, confusion is avoided...

    this is all in re mss for print, not online publication... the rules for submitting e-mss are not quite the same in several areas, including font and paragraphing, so may also vary in this...
     
  9. WritingNoob

    WritingNoob New Member

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    what about this example:

    "How strange - or so I thought." is that a good example of using it?
     
  10. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    could be... but that single hyphen should be a double and there should be no space before or after the em dash/double hyphen...
     
  11. WritingNoob

    WritingNoob New Member

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    yah it should be a double, but i guess FF doesn't change it like Word does. why would there be a space? can anyone explain how it's supposed to work?
     
  12. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    ...there shouldn't be...

    ...sure, but it would be better for you to google for the rules of em dash usage, or get yourself a good punctuation guide, as i suggested above, and learn it on your own...
     
  13. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    Microsoft Word automatically changes "--" into an em dash.
     
  14. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    As delivered in the UK it converts "--" into an en dash, not an em dash. At least until you turn it off.
     
  15. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    I may be confusing en and em, but it turns two dashes into one big one. Not three. For our American version anyway.
     
  16. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    For the UK version too. But the distinction between en-dashes and em-dashes is important on both sides of the Atlantic (even if the conventions for their use are different -- in the UK we use an en-dash with spaces around it in some contexts that would require an em-dash with no spaces in the USA).

    It doesn't help that in Word 2007 the option to "turn two hyphens into a dash" shows an em-dash even though the two dashes actually give me an en-dash (which is one reason I wonder whether the behaviour is different in the US version). Prior to Word 2007 it was an entry in the autocorrect list, so it showed you exactly what you would get (and you could change it).

    Of course, you can always use ctrl - or ctrl alt - (the '-' has to be the one on the numeric keypad. Although from what Mama has said you shouldn't be doing that in your MSS it might be useful in other writing.
     
  17. WritingNoob

    WritingNoob New Member

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    ok, i just re-read this and it makes more sense. is it even necessary to use the semi-colon? can i just use the dash instead?
     
  18. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    i always advise against using the ; or : in fiction, where in all instances, a comma, em dash, period, or conjunction will do a much better job...
     
  19. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    It is never "necessary" to use a semicolon. The good writer will exploit all the tools available to them, including the semicolon, but if you are nervous about it then you can always work around it -- use something else, or rephrase. In a sense I agree with Mamma: if you have to ask, you are probably better off not using it. But I'd suggest that you shouldn't be afraid of developing to a point when you can use it effectively, and when you get there then by all means use it. The difference between using a semicolon and a dash is subtle, but it exists (the semicolon is more formal, and I think it carries a subtle sense of precision) and the skilled writer can manipulate that.
     
  20. architectus

    architectus Banned

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    In informal writing, em dashes may replace commas, semicolons, colons, and parentheses to indicate added emphasis, an interruption, or an abrupt change of thought.

    Because colons seemed to be shunned in novels, they are replaced with an em-dash if used. So check out the following sentence again.
    Your assumptions about the study material are correct, that is, most weeks are divided.
    You can reduce that sentence.
    Your assumptions about the study material are correct: most weeks are divided.
    Replace the colon with an em-dash and walla.

    The next sentence the em-dash is replacing a comma; however, it is a hard sentence to read. Here is what it is saying.

    1. I'm currently not near you, 2. I'm in the Middle East, 3. I'm on leave, 4. I'm not back until October.
    There are several ways we can combine that information into one sentence, none of which need an em-dash emphasis, IMO. Why would the writer wish to emphasize "in the Middle East?"
    I'm currently in the Middle East so not near you, on leave and not back until October.
    I'm currently not near you because I'm in the Middle East, on leave and not back until October.

    Etc.

    The main use of the em-dash is to set off or emphasize the content enclosed within dashes or the content that follows a dash.

    In this way, it is used just like a comma, but unlike the comma, it adds more emphasis.

    She was my friend, my only friend, who helped me.

    The information in the middle is unnecessary, and thus set off by commas, a parenthetical statement.

    If you wished to emphasize "my only friend," you would use em-dashes instead of commas, or perhaps parentheses.

    She was my friend--my only friend--who helped me.
    She was my friend (my only friend) who helped me.

    I hope this helps. Here is a link as well.

    http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/dashes.asp
     

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