This feels wrong to me. Opinions?

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by GuardianWynn, Jun 29, 2015.

  1. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Yeah she didn't particular like her partner. I saw killing him as the point of crossing a moral line because they were technically allies.

    For moral base. Heck, she was a very submissive and reclusive loner whose soul reason for living after the passing of her husband was raising her child. She was the type to not even think about killing or hurting anyone.

    In that respect murdering the men that killed her son was probably that point.

    The basic idea is even if that was her crossing into evil I didn't think she was lost in it yet. Like having the morality to try and bring her evil down on other evil. So maybe the moral base she defiles is when she kills someone who wasn't evil?

    What do you think?
     
  2. Eliza Rain

    Eliza Rain Member

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    This may sound cruel, but her killing a child would probably be her crossing point, however extreme it is. The evil she sought to defeat is what she must become, as it's always a circle. Sticking with the maniacal side of it though, some of the worst things have happened with good intentions! Believing in her morality until she finally sees herself as evil is great, but there also should be a build that slowly shows itself to the reader.
     
  3. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    That is a hard one to imagine. Funny enough thinking about it. I never saw her completely crossing over I think. Example. There is a scene where she sees a woman being abused. She was an abusive victim. So she spares the woman. If you ask her why she did it. She wouldn't know. I think even once she became as bad as she gets she was always fueled by the underline desire to save herself or her son. Being reflected in how she goes about picking who to kill and who not to kill. Again completely under her own awareness.

    I have thought about her killing a kid. It seems unlikely at least directly. I can see her causing the death of a child and I can see her mocking someone who lost a child(in the same way she mocks the abusive victim she saves by calling her a waste of energy.).

    Does that make any sense?
     
  4. Eliza Rain

    Eliza Rain Member

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    Are you sure you want her to be portrayed as a monster? Because it sounds like you have a character hardened from loss. Those types of characters usually don't server any certain affiliations, and will do what they can to achieve their revenge. They often seem insane because their purpose is unknown, but they have a method to their madness. They may even seem to be monsters, usually having a lack of morals, but they do have their soft spots- like you said abuse is one of hers.

    Do you feel like any of that applies to your character?
     
  5. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Yes. That makes sense.

    I am sort of working backwards.

    I originally made a main story. This character is a villain in there. The story I am working on is based on the question "What if she wasn't always a monster or evil."

    So you are right. She is hardened by loss but I figured that hardenedness would shift to evil. I don't even think she would have realized it. Which is why I was starting with her proclaiming a mission, such as "I will prevent death like how my son died by killing bad people." but at some point her losing sight of this and just becoming a monster.

    I suppose a light monster? in the fact she has soft spots but then again I think even harsh monsters have soft spots. Does that makes sense?
     
  6. Eliza Rain

    Eliza Rain Member

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    Sweets you don't have to make her a monster at all, she's just a complex character! The thing is monster is a perceptional term, in which only the user can understand their definition. Some may call her a monster, while others a savior (similar to the conflicts of an anti-hero). Perhaps she is going down a spiral revenge, an uncertain crusade of what she considers to be morally sound. Such paths can lead to many inner dilemmas, to which you'll need to decide at what point she makes the hard decisions that ends her up as your antagonist. If you'd like, you can look up Kohlberg's pre, conventional, and post theories on how humans handle moral and ethical situations. However, since your main character is a woman, I'd also suggest looking into the theories of Carol Gilligan, who might be of more help since she focused on how women make tough choices. The difference being, men try not to break the law, and women try and save the most amount of 'value' (aka time, feelings, other people, ect). It might help you smooth out her transitions and maybe help you understand her actual goals better!

    Sorry if I got abit psychology 1100 on ya...
     
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  7. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Oh yeah. I don't meant to use the term evil or monster as absoult terms. Just an easy form of expression. Most people get what you mean with these terms. Though yeah when you really dial it down all people are compelled by reasons. I understand that. Just a lot more text to explain a character that way.


    I love psychology!

    Looks like I still got my work cut out for me. lol. If you liked discussing this I am wondering if you would like to discuss this in more context in a PM?

    I love opinions. :D
     
  8. theoriginalmonsterman

    theoriginalmonsterman Pickle Contributor

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    I heard this story on the news once about a mother who was pushing her son on a swing in a park. Apparently she had been there all day, so someone finally decided to call the police. It turns out the mother's son was dead the whole time, but she refused the fact that her son had died.

    I am not a parent, so it's hard for me to relate losing a child. Although I can imagine after killing the executioners that she goes into a state in which she loses all sense of emotion. I don't believe she would go insane killing other people, because she would be in shock from actually killing the executioner, so she would try ignore social situations... probably by secluding herself in a house. She would probably become depressed, and would try to avoid any contact with people until she's willing to accept her son is dead. Then very slowly make her way back into society. Of course if you're going for the MC to become insane... I don't know how to help you with making that sound logical, because honestly to me it sounds surreal.
     
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  9. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    That makes a lot of sense.

    I think the push towards insanity comes from an additional character. Basically this tyrant like person tries to use her unstable emotions to push her towards being a psycho killer. I really like your post because when I wrote there meeting for the first time. He finds her like what you said. Alone, except in her case she was in the forest waiting to die.

    Would you agree this other character giving her a push in the wrong direction would cause the effect? It seems logical enough, but boy, when you zoom into the detail, a character going from waiting to die in sorrow, to psycho killer is one heck of a hard transition to write. lol
     
  10. theoriginalmonsterman

    theoriginalmonsterman Pickle Contributor

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    Depends on this other character you're referring to. For all I know this other character could be a demon who possesses this women into becoming a psycho killing machine. Could you give me some more details?
     
  11. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Yes I can give more context. I am always afriad of giving too much. Wouldn't want to scare off a discussion.

    The Tyrant as I will call him here. Is more akin to a god. Or I call him god-like at least. He does have magic, and could to some extent use magic to push her. Though looking at TVTropes it would be "more than mind control" as he can't just make her do it. It is all about setting the stage. Which he does. Making her angry. He could use magic to help maker her angry but in the end he still has to convince her. Making her want to hurt others. Making her want to watch the world burn and then handing her a match.

    His reasoning is kind of again trope calls it "knight templar" meaning he is striving for utopia and he sees her as a means of helping him reach it. Turning her into a monster to do such is all fine by his standards.

    In relation to who and what he is. Not sure what more you would want. Before it gets side tracked.

    Anything else in particular you want to know?
     
  12. theoriginalmonsterman

    theoriginalmonsterman Pickle Contributor

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    Change of heart, change of mind...

    Is your MC completely alone or is there people trying to help her get through the death of her son. Maybe this "god-like" character could inflict her with visions of these people that are trying to help turning out to be people who plotted her son's execution. Then tempt her by giving her a weapon of sorts... such as a knife. Then the next time she sees the people that are trying to help her she loses it and kills them all off out of confusion and rage. Then this "god-like" character could continue to inflict with these visions until she loses all sense of control and goes insane.

    Would that work... sort of?
     
  13. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    As my original post said. The killers are dead. She already killed them. So in a sense she has no vengence to seek. Just pain.

    I think the end point has her no longer even remembering her sons name. As in she pushed herself so far from it, that she no longer could remember anything about it. Which is why she lost her morality. I am just not 100% sure how to get her there. A tricky one indeed. Right?
     
  14. theoriginalmonsterman

    theoriginalmonsterman Pickle Contributor

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    One does not simply go from depressed to insane... hmm...

    This is pretty tricky. The one last idea I have that could work is the "god-like" character messes with the MC's vision, so all she sees is the executioner. I know it's stretching it, but at this point I got nothing.
     
  15. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Well, not in the blink of an eye. lol but this character has a long life span. They have time to move from the first position to the second.

    In a sense that works but only to a point. He can do something like that but only to enhance her anger. Not create it. But oh! You have given me an idea. Thank you
     
  16. theoriginalmonsterman

    theoriginalmonsterman Pickle Contributor

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    No problem! If you need anymore help or ideas I'll be around.
     
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  17. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    I recently had a thought. A mistake my original idea may have made.

    Which is the fall, mild rise and true fall.

    Currently I had this;

    Son dies, she tries to move on with morals and fails.


    I think the "tries" part is the failure. It seems completely likely or reasonable to just have her fail at the gate. Such as


    Son dies, she becomes a monster.

    Occam's razor!

    I could even have the magic of the bad guy influence her this way from the start. Perfect! I think! Still doesn't change that I will need a transition from bad to worse but the transition from good to bad taken care of I think is a load off my mind.

    Seem logical? Opinions?

    @Lea`Brooks
    @Masked Mole
    @Eliza Rain
     
  18. Masked Mole

    Masked Mole Senior Member

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    Makes sense to me. I'm sure the others will find a flaw though. ;)
     
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  19. theoriginalmonsterman

    theoriginalmonsterman Pickle Contributor

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    I'm being a bit skeptical here... but you do have a protagonist in your story right? If the MC becomes a monster that kills everyone where is the good guy in the scenario?
     
  20. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    The protagonist doesn't have to be a good guy:

    MacBeth, Godfather, Dexter, Breaking Bad...
     
  21. theoriginalmonsterman

    theoriginalmonsterman Pickle Contributor

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    Good point. I still need to watch Godfather... I've only seen the first scene, and I really need to watch Breaking Bad.
     
  22. Lea`Brooks

    Lea`Brooks Contributor Contributor

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    I don't like it. Because from what I understand, good people don't turn into bad people overnight. Even though her son was murdered, she wouldn't go crazy immediately. There'd be a transition. Here's what I think you should do:

    Son dies, she withdraws, she starts killing, she becomes a monster.

    Her son is dead. She's heartbroken. I imagine her sitting in her house, alone, for months. All she does is think about her son and blame herself for not doing more to help him. Then she realizes, it wasn't her fault. The person at fault is the person who killed him. Personally, I wouldn't have her kill the killers right away (say they got away and never got caught). I'd save her killing them until later, once she really loses her mind. Maybe that can be her "I'm a monster" point.

    Because she starts flirting with the idea of punishing the killers. The more she thinks about it, the more the idea grows on her. But she wants them to suffer the way they made her suffer. So she comes up with a plan. But she's not a murderer. What if she messes up? So she starts finding people on the street (bad people) to practice on. It was messy. Amateur. She'd definitely get caught if she didn't get better. So she does it more. And more. And she gets better and better, to the point to where she's finally ready to kill the killers. And when she does, she expected to feel relieved -- a weight off her shoulders that her son finally got justice. But instead, she feels nothing. And she knows she's become a monster.
     
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  23. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    That makes a lot of sense. A lot! You are awesome but it reminds me of a quote.
    "Good things take time. Great things happen in an instant." course good here being more measure of quality than morality. lol.

    Also this seems more the reasonable conclusion if she fell on her own. I think I mentioned it. Maybe I didn't mention it in depth in the first or last post but there was a boss influencing her to be evil. Actually to give a spoiler. The boss set up the death of her son, something at the moment she never figures out. So living alone for months, while makes sense I don't think would be how he would handle the situation. Actually correction, this guy has been know to take time. So maybe he would.

    The bigger question is, in context of the guide leading her to darkness. Do your ideas still work? I am not so sure.

    The guy that literally(as in set the fire) killed her son getting away. Interesting. I can see that approach as valid in the context of a story but since this story aims to follow her become a monster and die. At which point she tries to become a good person again. Not sure if extreme focus on that grudge is a sound choice. After all, the story kind of something like;
    "In extreme despair she lacked the strength to make the right choice" being that she was too grieve stricken to see the clues in front of her and she ended up working for the man that set up her child's death.

    Does that make sense?

    Thank you for your feedback. :)
     
  24. Lea`Brooks

    Lea`Brooks Contributor Contributor

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    Why would she work for a man who is cruel enough to kill someone's son if she's a good person? I haven't been following the thread since my first response, so if you said why, I didn't see it.

    Anything can "work" if you try hard enough. Maybe she doesn't sit in her house all day, but she withdraws from everyone, even while she's working. And if her boss is the one who influences her to turn evil, maybe he's the one who plants the idea in her head to kill the killers. He knows she's fragile and upset, so she's easily manipulated. Using her grief for his gain is something an "evil" character would do.

    So you think killing random strangers out of grief is more forgivable than killing to bring justice to her son? I think the opposite is true. I'd rather see a character work to bring down the killers than a character who's gone insane with grief.
     
  25. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    I said in the post you quoted. She doesn't know he set it up. lol.

    I figured she wouldn't need to be motivated into killing the killers. I figure she would have all the desire she needs to do that just from watching the life leave her son. I think as a friend put it. The bad guy, killed her son to break her. Now that she is broken he is rebuilding her as a woman hurting people because she is insane with grief. So the real issue I am trying to work out I suppose is how to transition her from broken to rebuilt as a monster. If that makes sense?

    I actually agree there is a validity in holding back that death. It would be easy for example, to have the bad guy catch the real killer and dangle him in front of her(not literally) leading to her working for him as a means to find and kill him. That might be a great idea. It by context of the dark guy leading her though would involve him doing it. Which again is actually fine. I am more wondering if you thought the bad guy leading the MC into anger and hate by making sure she failed to get him, thus adding that grudge is a good idea?

    Also not sure what you mean by forgivable in that context?

    Also she is a character that is hurting people because she is insane with grief. So that will be part of her story. But it doesn't have to be the only part. :D
     

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