Thoughts on Self-Publishing

Discussion in 'Self-Publishing' started by Vivienne Crow, May 17, 2007.

  1. Cloaked-Raven

    Cloaked-Raven New Member

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    I think that self publishing, even though it is a viable means of promoting work, makes the writer of the piece look impatient or amateuristic. I think it has its uses, and i've nothing against it personally, but i don't think that one can ever truly be satisfied with a novel or anthology until it has been published by a company that doesn't do self publishing.
     
  2. Manny

    Manny New Member

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    I have been considering the self publishing route as I was a tad offput by some of what I had read about submitting via conventional methods, and the fact that my knowledge of the subject matter (and thus the eventual target market) will exceed that of most publishers.

    Perusing this thread as a newb however makes me more inclined to pursue the traditional route, even if a rockier pathway.

    It is mentioned above that so called 'vanity published' writers are frowned upon by conventional publishers, why is that please? Are they not inclined to judge the quality of work on its own merit? Is a writer frowned upon because of the perception that he needed to self publish rather than chose to?

    Also I am wondering about the marketing aspect of self publishing. One can of course work tirelessly on the net self promoting, especially to a niche market, but one is cut off from the traditional marketing that a traditional publisher can offer surely?
     
  3. Good_writer

    Good_writer Banned

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    Manny, d'you think you can help me in my thread - "Need Help!" here in publishers section? If you could, then it would be really appreciated.
     
  4. Manny

    Manny New Member

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    I should clarify something I wrote above, when I said 'and the fact that my knowledge of the subject matter (and thus the eventual target market) will exceed that of most publishers' , I meant about my topic of choice, not about publishing.
     
  5. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    ...because 99.9999% of all that's vanity published is so poor in quality that no traditional publisher would touch it...

    ...no, because there's simply too much of it... and why should they?... if it's already on the market as a vanity published work, they're not going to be able to make any money on it, unless, as happens only once in a blue moon, the book sold hundreds of thousands of copies, making a reprint a no-brainer... so, the only way such a book will even be noticed by the paying publishers is if it's already a best-seller...

    ...absolutely!... and why not?... if the work is good enough, eventually it will find a paying publisher... if it doesn't, it's almost always because the writer gave up before that could happen... even one of america's greatest writers ever [think it was faulkner], had to keep trying after nearly a hundred rejections, before his first book got taken on by a publisher...

    ...of course... publishing houses have marketing and distribution venues that self-publishers can't avail themselves of... not to mention the pr cachet of their name alone, and the advertising they can afford to do...
     
  6. Manny

    Manny New Member

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    I was tempted by self publishing prior to my arrival here, indeed I had shared some links with an American article writer I know who was considering similar.

    My motivation was pure lazyness really and I was labouring under the misguided belief that it would provide a short cut to having a book 'published' and that conventional publishers would look more favourably on me in the future.

    Reading this forum and some of the self publishing stories of others linked out from here has convinced me to go the traditional route.
     
  7. flashgordon

    flashgordon New Member

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    I would have to disagree on some points. It is very possible to make a good living self-publishing and there are numerous reasons why traditional publishers skip over good books. The case is not very cut and dry, especially these days as traditional publishers use the same POD technology that many self-publishers use. In fact, if the self-publisher is good, it is nearly impossible to tell what books have been self-published or traditionally published (unless one knows most of the publishing houses out there).

    Now, subsidy or vanity publishing is an entirely different thing. It should not be confused with self-publishing. One can self-publish via a vanity press, but one can also self-publish via their own publishing company and have access to almost all of the same resources traditional publishers have (except for all of the money).

    It is really up to the writer. How much control do you want over your work? Do you want 100% royalties or just a small fraction? Either way, you will still have to do most - or a lot - of the marketing. Unless you have a big name already, or a "platform" as publishers are calling things these days, most traditional publishers will do little to no marketing for you. So, you will still have to market and promote your book just as if it was self-published.

    I think it comes down to the person. Bookstores do not care whether it was traditionally or self-published (they do care if it was vanity published). As long as they get their discount and can order it through Ingram or Baker & Taylor or some other wholesaler/distributor, they most likely will not even know.

    Either way, once the writing is over the journey is not.

    Cheers
     
  8. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    with non-fiction, yes, in some cases... but not with fiction, unless you have a built-in market, as with christian-based works that can be sold through christian websites, bookshops and other such 'niche' venues...

    and, in the [paying] publishing/literary world, any method by which the writer has to pay to have a book published and/or sold, rather than being paid by the publisher to do so, is considered 'vanity' publishing, whether folks who do/recommend that like it or not...

    'self'-publishing by its very name is an exercise in 'vanity' since it's only the writer her/himself who's taking a chance on the work, not anyone else...
     
  9. Leaka

    Leaka Creative Mettle

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    All though that seems like the case as well self-publishing seems like the only idea.
    Because it takes forever to get noticed by anyone and by then you're to old to live for a million stories to write.
    The only problem with self publishing is that you need money.
     
  10. TWErvin2

    TWErvin2 Contributor Contributor

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    How long is 'forever'? What constitutes too long to build up writing skills that will not only attract a reputable publisher, but also readers? Is self-publication a shortcut around that?

    When does one get too old to write stories?

    How long did it take and/or at what age did Rowling, King, Clancy, or Brooks get noticed or published? They've been rather prolific and still have plenty of stories yet to write/tell.

    If impatience is the reason to select self-publishing, I'm not sure it's the correct reason. Marketing and building a following, or at least a name/platform where readers will purchase your books (in the vast majority of instances) takes a good bit of time, no matter if you're on your own (self-published) or if a reputable publisher with solid a distribution network accepts your work.

    Writing a book and self-publishing, and then setting up a website, visiting a few forums and getting a few local articles in newspapers and book signings...that takes more than a bit of time and patience in itself...how far would that take you as a self-published writer? And the writing/content isn't really that good, how effective will the best marketing and promotion efforts be in the end? In any case, you're still looking at years of work (both writing and marketing) so self-publication isn't necessarily a shortcut, unless the only reason to self-publish is to say you have a book in print, and share it with a few family members and friends. In that case marketing and all the other stuff (except the cost) doesn't matter.

    Then there's the expense of self-marketing...

    Terry
     
  11. Manny

    Manny New Member

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    That was also my logic.

    The marketing aspect must be the single most prohibitive factor if one chooses to self publish.

    Setting up a website, marketing it via a few forums and other avenues will still only sell you 50-100 copies or so, that isnt enough to make it worthwhile and further marketing makes it logistically very difficult.

    Although the prospect of all returns in my pocket rather than a measly percentage is tempting. :rolleyes:

    From a businessman's perspective, if I am not confident enough to risk some of my own cash, how can I expect anyone else to?

    I did recently read one self publish site that claimed they did all the boring stuff like ISBN numbers and additionally made it available to bookshops via their purchasing channels, guaranteed a small review in a few bookshop resources (in the hope they will stock it), got it into libraries somewhow, and indeed most of the marketing they claimed a traditional publisher does including making it available on Amazon etc.

    I forget who it was as I cant find the link. I recall they offered some kind of silver and gold type deal and the upper one got you X number of copies (quite a lot) but with all the bells and whistles it would be a £10k investment.

    You may think I am back sitting on the fence with regard to self publishing, I couldnt possibly comment. :D
     
  12. flashgordon

    flashgordon New Member

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    Very true Manny, if one goes the self-publishing route there is tons of work to do. However, these days unless you are a big name or already famous or have a "platform", you still have to do all of your own marketing even if printed by a traditional publisher.

    One thing is that the publisher you were referring to sounds like a subsidy or vanity publisher. This is very different then true self-publishing. I don't think one should ever pay to have their work published: either get it traditionally published or go the true self-publishing route and set up your own publishing company. Getting your books into Amazon, Barnes & Noble, in the US and UK, in Ingram, etc. is fairly easy for the self-publisher. Getting it reviewed by the big journals that drive much of the market: Kurkus, Library Journal, etc. is hard but not impossible as long as you follow their guidelines and have a long enough lead time (around 4 months) between ARCs and actual publication.

    I've done both: I have been with several different traditional publishers and academic presses and have also self-published. I've been happy all around.

    What is wrong with sitting on the fence... both sides have green grass ;)
     
  13. Baron

    Baron New Member

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    I work with a group of writers and artists who have established our own "publishing company". Effectively this began as publishing our own e-books on the group website but has developed to producing hard copy by using Lulu.com as printers. The group website gets a high percentage of hits which has taken some of the hard work out of promotion. Also, by using Lulu we are able to sell books on Amazon so long as they have ISBN numbers, which the group purchase in batches of 10 at a time. The only cost that has been involved in this is the group membership fee, which just covers the cost of the ISBN number.

    I have been published by traditionally publishers and this is my first venture into what may be termed self-publishing and although not as high profile as the marketing strategies of the large publishing houses, it has generated a little success in a very short time. I believe that the big advantage has been working with a group of people, rather than just trying it alone, and having an established website as a base of operations. I have to say that the site, once primarily a visual artists' site, is now being revamped with the publishing side being prominent and the artists' galleries moving into the background but still drawing visitors.

    If anyone decides to take this route then I would strongly recommend working in this way, with a group of others. One person on their own, even with a great website, will pull a limited number of visitors whereas a group offers variety that causes people to browse and generates more hits.

    I've stated my opinion in this thread before and I still believe that groups of writers working this way can challenge traditional publishing in the same way that independant record labels have shallenged the music industry.
     
  14. Manny

    Manny New Member

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    I am a little bit between a rock and a hard place with the decision.

    I was mooching on Amazon the other night on a similar subject to my own and found one guys self published (when I checked the publisher) book available at $78 :eek:

    His book had reviews on there! Similar is available for 1/5th of that price.

    Now it is not rocket science to work out that 10% of a traditional £9-99 book versus 70% of a $78 (£39) book is less than a pound -v- £27-30. One guy has to sell one book to make £27 and one guy has to sell 27. Halve the figures and it is still 13+ to 1 if my %'s are out so much.

    One must decide if one wants to make some cash or merely wants to be 'traditional' and do it the hard way I am thinking. Does one write 'for the love of it' only or does one hope for a possibility to earn a sheckle also? I love to write but also like money! :D

    If I can combine the two then much better!

    I am wondering if most writers are not business people at all. To coin a stereotype; are they sitting by the sea shore, in hopeless debt, penning the great 'never be published' novel or are some actually business people who happen to have enough knowledge on a subject to write about it, and expect payment/profit for the endeavour? (Subject to decent marketing)

    I am a Thatcherite - what can I say? :p
     
  15. Baron

    Baron New Member

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    I don't think that you can pigeonhole writers, they come from all walks of life. As for making money, I think that most of us who take writing seriously want to earn from what we do.

    When it comes to pricing, using lulu.com allows pricing to be comparable with normal high street bookshop prices so I don't see the problem there. It comes around to promotion again and this is where I strongly believe that there is great advantage in forming groups and working together for reasons stated in an earlier post.
     
  16. Manny

    Manny New Member

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    I found a forum called Absolute Write, there are rooms devoted to self publishing. There is, described in detail over there, a marked difference between self and vanity.

    Perusing the threads and reading websites, I seem to leaning toward Diggory Press. They are proven to be cheaper than Lulu with much better marketing packages.

    Does anyone over here have any experience with them?
     
  17. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    that's preditors & editors' listing... don't rely on absolute write to be absolutely right... always check out the p&e listing and then google the name to find out for yourself, with a careful perusal of the site and see if there's any negative chatter showing up in the google results...

    as for the difference, 'vanity' covers all methods of paying to get your book in print, vs being paid... even the pod venues that don't require an up front fee make you have to buy your own books in order to sell them... and they all require you to do the marketing and pr for your books, which a paying publisher will do for you [yes, you may need to pitch in a bit with book signings, radio/tv interviews, but don't have to do it all on your own, as with the 'vanity' ones]...

    btw, the term 'vanity' only refers to the fact that if a writer wants to get his/her work in print and no traditional publisher will pay them for it, then the writers' 'vanity' causes them to do it on their own, one way or another... it's not a term that describes any particular one/s of those methods, which range from paying the entire cost by hiring your own printer, to going with PA or lulu...
     
  18. Baron

    Baron New Member

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    I don't see how they can come a lot cheaper than Lulu when there is no cash outlay except for books ordered. to all intents and purposes, Lulu is just a printer, with the advantage of a proven internet record.
     
  19. Manny

    Manny New Member

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    Comparable author copies seem to be cheaper with Diggory. I read a lot tonight to support that.

    That said; I also Googled them and found another forum where the Diggory MD particpated with some guy called Manning in some kind of flame war. They claim to be each taking the other to court. :eek:

    If Mods allow it*, the link to that is here.

    I was interested in Diggory's platinum option and its alleged distribution etc. Not cheap but effective if it works.

    My Google work on Diggory is far from complete however. :(

    I would welcome opinions on the Diggory Platinum Deal if anyone has one.

    * I didnt want to be seen as link dropping as a newbie but the links are balanced postives and negatives and pertinent to the conversation. If not allowed Mods please edit links.
     
  20. MarcG

    MarcG New Member

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    Their website is still selling that guy's book, almost a year later. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say "don't use them". ;)
     
  21. Manny

    Manny New Member

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    I have since been Googling at length and found much to discredit Diggory by various people across many forums and other media, including that Manning guy's website of complaints and court preparation stuff.

    So Diggory is off my list. :p
     
  22. flashgordon

    flashgordon New Member

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    The only problem with Lulu is that bookstores generally wont carry their titles because of their lack of a return policy and not giving a big enough discount (i.e., 40-50%).

    The best way to self-publish and not go the vanity or subsidy press route is to set up your own publishing company and use Lightning Source as your printer. That will get you into Amazon, Ingrams, many other places, and allow you to set your own cover price, discount, and return policy. It is much more work, but if you are leaning towards self-publishing, you might as well go all out.
     
  23. Baron

    Baron New Member

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    My own experience so far with Lulu has been good. The group project, nominally our own publishing company, is getting off to a reasonable start and Lulu, in effect, only function as the printer.

    I am interested in your input, however, and will look into Lightning Source.

    Thanks for posting.
     
  24. Sophronia

    Sophronia New Member

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    I too have had a good experience with Lulu, and have self-published several books with their company. I only had one problem, when one of their printers screwed up trying to print my book; when I tried to address the problem (including sending a few photos of the ruined book and complaining various times), they wouldn't give me a straight answer to my question: can I get another copy for free since this wasn't mine or Lulu's fault? They neither said yes or no, so I had to go back, do a little revision, and order another copy. Fortunately, this one turned out right, and ever since then Lulu has done an excellent job printing my manuscripts and what such naught. I quit blaming them for what happened, because they were just about as clueless as I was about the ordeal (about how my book turned out all weird anyways).

    I might get a different publishing company someday, but for the time being I'm content and grateful to see my stories in print and available for anyone to buy ^^
     

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