1. Rem Nightfall
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    Rem Nightfall Banned

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    Tightening the Review Room Rules

    Discussion in 'Support & Feedback' started by Rem Nightfall, Nov 12, 2008.

    'Ello, I no the title of the thread is weird, but I didn't know how to make an appropriate name. I have an idea, for what some people may say its a mean rule, but I think as well as the "you have to have two constructive reviews before posting up your work for review" <--Like this rule. I think that rule should have a brother, I think that you have to have at least twenty post before posting up your work to review. Because I see a lot of new members coming on here without reviewing or reviewing, but say only have 4 post. Two are "reviews" shall we call them, one of them is there story, and another would be in the game section of the forums.<---not talking about anyone specific just a general example of what I notice Now I find this very rude, I might be the only one so I just may sound like Mr. Grouch at the moment, I find it that they only whipped up two reviews so that way they can "follow the rule" so that way they can get a review. I rather see them with twenty post and more then two reviews because this would push them to be more open to reviewing others work as well instead of the mindset "oh let me follow the rule and put my story up" because the mindset would just be on there story. This way their mindset can be on taking some of their own time as well.
    Hope I didn't sound like Mr. Grouch, hope I wasn't confusing, and hope I wasn't being rude or anything. I prefer not to sound rude, as I said I may just be grumpy. If there is anything I have to clarify I will be willing to.
     
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  2. lipton_lover
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    lipton_lover Contributing Member

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    I think I agree, at least on the surface. Users should at the very least have to make a hello thread I think. But really, some quality time in the general writing section before posting stories would be great both for the forum and for the user I think.
    Nate
     
  3. tarnished
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    tarnished Contributing Member Contributor

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    Well, I agree that members coming in and using the forum for just getting a review, and making to barely perfunctionary reviews is quite aggravating. I think that this rule would really help out in the forum, and encourage new members to stick around for a while instead of being "three post wonders"*. However, this rule may also repel members from the website because of this "mean rule". However, if the members flee because they don't want to put in effort, would they have been the member we rejected before? A dilemma. Maybe a mod can offer some words of wisdom.
    *- I got "three post wonder" from Cogito.
     
  4. garmar69
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    garmar69 Contributing Member Contributor

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    Anything posted in the word game forum doesn't add to post count.

    People should post more and contribute to the forum before posting their own work. But that could run off a lot of good people who have to post 20 constructive posts/reviews first.

    While I agree with you for the most part, I don't want to start a debate.
     
  5. Rem Nightfall
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    Rem Nightfall Banned

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    That isn't exactly what I meant. Just 20 post in general, but this kind of gives them a mindset to contribute more. My hope is that saying that they can't put their own work up unless they have 2 constructive reviews and 20 post is that they will contribute more then just 3 post or 4 post. My hope is that by telling them they need 20 post is that they read more, contribute more, and review more. I hope it gives them a better mindset then: "oh I want my story to be look at so bad, let me put two "reviews" up so that way I can put my story up" to "Let me look at others work, I want to learn, let me read this persons review, let me review".
    So I guess changing "look at me" to "I wanna learn". Though this makes me sound a little like Mr. Grouch.
     
  6. Speedy
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    Speedy Contributing Member Contributor

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    I always feel it takes a certain kind of person to really stick it to a decent site like this and that sure you can add rules but some people will be who they are. We give them two reviews to do and quiet a few cant even do that very well (though since i've been here a LOT of very nice, kind and very decent people have come alone the way and do justice to a wicked site. I just feel if we give (or make) a rule on 20 or 25 or whatever the post limit that some people will do a half-arsed effort in posting (like some reviews) and we'll end up with a million 5 wrod posts that mean nothing, or push the site to strive higher. (This isnt including people who may not even attempt to join if they feel forced.)

    Saying this is completly understand its function, and could even warrent it. And if i saw 20 post that stood out as a member wanting to be part of this forum, id most certainly help them out.

    Id like to see a review and reviews. Give a new member a point system. When they get to say 10 or 20 points they are then allowed to post their own work (though its more complicated((which isnt cool)) and would kill off newbies even faster).

    Oh well.
     
  7. Rem Nightfall
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    Rem Nightfall Banned

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    And if it did kill of newbies, obviously it would have been a member who didn't want to contribute. Obviously that member was only interested in their work and didn't feel that they needed to take some time to look at others works. That is how I look at it, but that makes me sound grumpy. This whole thread makes me sound grumpy and old.
     
  8. chad.sims2
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    chad.sims2 Contributing Member

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    I think 20 posts is reasonable. It's extreamly easy to get that many, I have posted that many in a week before. (I think) I think that any person could post twice a day no problem and come up with 20 in ten days so it's not really a big deal.
     
  9. Speedy
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    Speedy Contributing Member Contributor

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    Its ok mate - i just had to drive for 3 hours and carry 20 pounds of "crap" for the misses for a few miles in the heat.

    I believe im grumpy and old ;)
     
  10. Cogito
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    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    I'm fully in favor of this. Not to be mean, but to make sure newcomers spend at least a little time looking around and finding what the site is about before they jump into the Review Room. Time to find out that the Review Room is a workshop, requiring active participation, not a place to post writing and passively wait for a judgment to be passed on it.

    I think that would head off misunderstandings and hurt feelings more than the current system, and it would perhaps encourage them to read the site rules to figure out what the heck is going on.

    It won't solve the problem of newcomers posting elsewhere on the site when they find they are unable to post in the Review Room, but one problem at a time.

    I'd also like to see Workshop be part of the name of the Review Room, to further head off misunderstandings.

    Our policy for that area is one of the features that makes this site unique, and I think a little brushing up will perhaps avoid ticking off newcomers who expect it to be something else, something more like what they see on other sites. We don't do it to be mean; we just want to deliver better value.

    I hope you don't mind, Rem, I renamed the thread.
     
  11. lipton_lover
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    lipton_lover Contributing Member

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    Cogito, you mentioned encouraging them to read the site rules, and that struck a chord with me. How many people actually read site rules, or rules to anything online such as terms of services? I don't until it becomes a problem that I haven't. It's not that I don't care, it's that I don't see the need to. I know what every site says, be nice, sometimes they say don't swear which I never do, yada yada. So when I come across a special forum like this, I don't know it until someone like you tells me, as you've had to do. So really I think it's important that the users learn more about the site before they start posting.

    That being said, I still think this is a good idea. But better than just letting them choose where to place their 20 posts as fast as possible, which of course is how they're going to think of it, it should be required to be spread out across the forum. Aka 2 in each 'Writing Issues' forum. And if they do it in order, which is pretty likely, they'll end up in the reviewing section where they will be prepped on reviewing. Then they'll probably skip the 'Community Interaction' and go straight to the review section, where they will review others and post their work.

    This would depend on them reading the rules though. If they try posting their work and they're greeted with "You must make two posts in x and x and x and x and x forum before posting your work", I can see them just leaving. So it goes back to the top of my post, something needs to be done to compel users to read the site rules and why they're there.

    Also... don't discount the fact that this would probably create more spam for the mods to clean up. That's never good.
    Nate
     
  12. Cogito
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    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Yeah, I don't want them to spam the place just to spread out posts. That's getting a bit too arbitrary.

    There just comes a point where you have to say, "Look, we did all we could to help you have a smooth start, now it's your turn."

    The registration process urges new members to start by posting an intriduction. Even when they do, I don't know how many actually get around to reading my grand tour.
     
  13. ZionsRodeVos
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    ZionsRodeVos New Member

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    I always read the terms of service and the rules before joining a site as I want to know what is expected of me before I join. I did seek out this site because I want to post my work to see what others think of it. I did a number of reviews to be sure I had done enough for when I am ready to post something for review.

    I actually like the rule that you must do 2 reviews before you can post your work for review. That way you are giving something to the community before you get something. Even though adding a post count restriction could be helpful to get someone more involved before posting their work for review you will still find those that only came here to get a review and then leave. And even if someone only has 3 posts they have contributed to the community.

    My purpose for seeking out a writing forum was primarily to get feed back on my stories but I also came here to learn and have been learning. I've learned enough that I don't think I have anything ready for review yet which is the main reason I haven't posted anything for review yet. I thought I had short stories that were ready but now I don't think so. Some day I'll have something ready.

    EDIT: I forgot to mention that I read Cogitos tour and many of his posts before posting my introduction thread.
     
  14. Rem Nightfall
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    Rem Nightfall Banned

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    Well then instead of telling "follow this rule" tell them something like "you should or we would like".
    And introduce them to the General writing section, introduce them to the other places that newbies miss. Maybe the whole entire problem is the fact that they are told [do not take offense to what I am about to say] "posting your own work shouldn't be your main objected you should post at least 2 constructive reviews before" Maybe instead of introducing them to the 2 constructive review, maybe introduce them to the general writing section, the plot creation.
    Cause I think that may get lost in confusion as well with that. [I'm just a rare person I read the rules because I don't want to get in trouble]
    And if the newbies start spamming or leaving, it all goes down the question "were they going to be a contributing member and would they even be a member that would stay here and communicate with others"
    I think for this 20 post thing to work, we should introduce them to the 20 post rule instead of the 2 constructive reviews.
    That way you can start them into the other lovely sections other than the lounge and the fun sections.
    Thank you for changing the thread title, I wish I thought of that.

    Here and Now
    ~Rem Nightfall
     
  15. Cogito
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    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    It really has to be a rule, not simply advice.

    I don't usually have a problem with the peopl ewho have read my tour post. I've even gotten comments saying they were annoyed at first, but once it was explained they cchanged their minds.

    No, the problems I have are mostly with those who go straight to the Review Room as soon as they have an account, and start posting. When they get the error message, they try to post "This is great," and get another error message telling them their response is too short. So they say the same thing in a few more words, repeat it for another thread, and THEN post their work, figuring they've "paid the admission fee."

    That's the problem. They have joined the site with the sole expectation, "I'll post my writing and get a review. And meanwhile my writing is there for all to enjoy." They aren't thinking of it as a workshop, because no one has given them that impression.

    We need to somehow get them to understand, "No, it is not a free publishing point, and no, it's not a place to passively obtain a review. It's a place to build writing and critiquing skills."
     
  16. Rem Nightfall
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    Rem Nightfall Banned

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    Then how about we disable their access to making new threads in the novel section until they have 20 post. You know those messages you cannot access this because your account hasn't been activated, but in this case it would be enforcing the rule "You cannot access this until you have posted 20 contributing post"
    Contributing in bold because we know they would just go to spam if that was the case, so we have to enforce that we want stuff that isn't spam and something we can call contributing.
     
  17. lipton_lover
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    lipton_lover Contributing Member

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    IMO, it needs to be a rule. And the suggestions so far have been good I think, I'm just feeling for the mods who will undoubtedly have more spam to clean up for it.

    How long can the message like the 2 reviews first one be? I'm thinking that there's the best place to explain things. I'm sure most people would read it then.
    Nate
     
  18. Cogito
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    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    The error message can certainly be improved, but it should remain brief, regardless of technical limitations. If it's lengthy, it will not be read. But it should include the term constructive critiques instead of simply reviews.

    I do feel strongly that there should be a minimum post count on the site in order to start a thread there. But instead of phrasing it as a count, I would put in terms of member status. Junior Member currently transitions to Member at 30 posts, and the exact count could be adjusted. Telling them in the message that a minimum status of Member is required, as well as two or more constructive critiques, would push them to look at site information to find out what is required to lose the Junior status. That would be a good place to also explain the workshop.

    (I've actually given this some thought before now, in case you hadn't guessed. :))
     
  19. Rem Nightfall
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    Rem Nightfall Banned

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    Maybe a newbie bootcamp. Someone to help them understand reviews better and someone to help them understand the ways of the site.
     
  20. Alex_Hartman
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    Alex_Hartman Contributing Member

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    Yes!!!

    I think that the Review Room should be locked until you have your posts and maybe we should rename it to "Workshops"...only I like "The Review Room" better...
     
  21. Rem Nightfall
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    Rem Nightfall Banned

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    I also noticed a lot of newbie get confused with the Review section[the place where you ask about how to make your reviews better] and the Review Room. So I think Workshop would be better or maybe Critique Room.
     
  22. Cogito
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    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Perhaps Critiquing Workshop. Also I'd like to change the Reviewing forum under Writing Issues to Reviewing Strategies.
     
  23. Rem Nightfall
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    Rem Nightfall Banned

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    I like the Critiquing Workshop, that is good. And Reviewing Strategies is just as good.
     
  24. Pie 4 Life
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    Pie 4 Life New Member

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    As a newbie I would just like to give my thoughts on this.

    I think a minimum post count is a great idea, simply because it is a bit daunting going onto such a massive site when, someone like me for example, hasn't been on a site of this type (Writing Forums) that is this large. I won't be posting my work for a little while simply because I don't believe it is good enough, certainly not to match some of the stuff that users on here post.

    I would like to improve and I believe I can, but I certainly need a lot more work by reviewing others. The only problem I have is, I almost feel a bit embarrassed that I might say the wrong thing when reviewing someone's work. I can't really tell them "It could be improved..." or "You slip up here" unless it's either obvious or to do with the actual narrative, rather than the style of writing.

    I realise there is a lot of information out there, but for a newbie, you get bogged down trying to take it all in so it will take time, especially for me, and I hope to gain a lot more experience before posting my work.

    That's my 2 cents anyway :)
     
  25. Sylvester
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    One of the Newbies

    I'm probably one of members who has brought up this thread.

    I'm here to post my work, get feedback, and to learn. I have no problem with posting reviews and comments as well. But I've also seen people with well over 100 posts give somebody a review only for higher ups to tell him or her that they are wrong. How can I, as new guy on the block, really give a review if I don't really know what is and isn't correct. The way it is, you have to worry about hurting the writer's feeling, ... and if you are wrong?

    What if short scripts, novel chapters, or play scenes were posted on the forum that new guys like me have to review before we can post. One full of mistakes, errors, and what not. One with new writer mistakes to encourage the new guy to look for the flaws. The third can be perfect. As they are tests, nobody gets hurt feelings.

    Also, there can be the old nasty-grams to tap new writers on the shoulder.

    Just an idea from one of the newbies
     

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