Touchy Topic: Female on Male Rape

Discussion in 'Research' started by Yume No Okami, Mar 17, 2015.

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Is this a good idea?

  1. Yes (please reply why)

    0 vote(s)
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  2. No (how come?)

    0 vote(s)
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  3. Yeah- try this (reply below)

    3 vote(s)
    75.0%
  4. No, but do this (below yay)

    1 vote(s)
    25.0%
  1. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    They don't ever lose it. You alone make the decisions where your body and what you do with it, is concerned. I'm simply ascertaining the difference between rape/sexual assault/spousal rape and compromise/persuasion.

    Whatever we think personally, we will try to find a partner who thinks along the same lines. Sometimes, that doesn't happen, sometimes we adjust a little to suit. We change with age and awareness of the world.
     
  2. Chinspinner

    Chinspinner Contributor Contributor

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    Is your question: Do I force the issue regardless of her response? You seem intent on painting all men as rapists.

    As if I should need to answer this, I take her first response of"no".

    Anyway going to the gym, this will have to wait.
     
  3. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    If you're charging for blowjobs, there's definitely a power imbalance there. I feel sorry for the man, and think the woman is a bully. She's using sex (or a sexual activity anyway) as some kind of bargaining chip and could easily be seen as using sex to control the man. For me this would be a slippery slope towards eventual abuse. (that is, the woman abusing the man)

    Just as a man should not withhold sex from his wife, his wife should not withhold sex from her husband. Yes, sometimes you're not in the mood and that must be respected, but be reasonable. If you haven't had sex with your spouse for a week or more and your spouse asks you to please do it, it's quite understandable. It's understandable they might try some persuasion. It's understandable they might struggle more with lust, with straying eyes, with porn, and eventually with infidelity. It's not the persuasion or straying eyes/heart I'd see as the core - those are symptoms. When one party regularly withholds sex for no clear reason and is selfish enough to think of only his or her own wants, that says something about how healthy the relationship is in the first place - and that's not very.

    Has my husband tried to persuade me to have sex with him before? Yes. Have we had problems regarding sex before because he pestered me too much? Yes. We talked about it, tried harder at accommodating each other. I tried to be more active - he was feeling bad cus he was always initiating and feels like I never want it, so he feels trapped because he does have a sex drive and he really doesn't want to be staring at other women or having sex dreams or being tempted by porn. He just wants his wife - why is that wrong? He shouldn't have to feel bad about wanting his wife. And for his part, he asked less often. He accepted "no" more and more happily. He learnt to put me first, and I learnt to put him first. Now we have a wonderful sex life.

    I don't think the existence of persuasion when it comes to sex or being requested to push boundaries or lay your own desires aside is a sign of being unhealthy. But it is a sign of the relationship being unhealthy if these things happen consistently, regularly, repeatedly. But people do go through learning curves with these things - or at least we did!
     
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  4. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    They do. I know couples who don't even share the same bedroom anymore and yet live perfectly happily married lives. I also know others who are at it like rabbits and try everything! (and I mean, everything, to them, Fifty Shades of Grey is light reading!)
     
  5. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    I am absolutely NOT intent on painting all men as rapists! and I am quite offended that you think that!

    If anything, I am defending the men who pester from time to time and have wandering hands at two in the morning!
     
  6. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Hallelujah! Thank you @Mckk this is what I have, in a roundabout way, been trying to say!
     
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  7. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    So, physical autonomy is why the person saying 'no' is always right. It's their body, so it's their decision. If they wanted to do something to/with the other person's body, that other person would have the absolute right to say no.

    In both of the examples you gave, I didn't see sexual assault, but I saw unhealthy relationship tactics. Maybe less in the first one, depending on previous relationship dynamics. But the second one? Who the hell wants to have sex with someone who's just doing it to get you to stop nagging? Just go jerk off, asshole, and let the woman get some sleep! If you like the restaurant analogy, this isn't the equivalent of "I want Italian, because Indian rice sticks to my teeth." It's the equivalent of "I want Italian! You don't want Italian? Why not? Does this relationship mean so little to you that you won't eat the food I like?!? I want Italian. Italian! No Indian, only Italian!" Which? For me? The guy could eat all the Italian he wanted, by himself or with somebody else. But not with me.
     
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  8. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    But NO ONE is saying that these men are rapists. We're just saying that if it's happening a lot, it seems like a sign of an unhealthy relationship.
     
  9. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    And did you read the last paragraph of her post? 'Cause I think that's what Chinspitter and I have been trying to say. The man's not a rapist, but the relationship isn't healthy.
     
  10. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Chinspinner accused me of trying to paint all men as rapists.
     
  11. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    She said consistently.

    There was a problem, they talked, they sorted it out which is what you do. Hell, it's what I did but that doesn't mean it's right for everyone.
     
  12. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Well, yeah. You said, "So you're one of the few men in the world who accepts 'no' every time?", which... makes it sound like you're painting MOST men as rapists. Because men who don't accept 'no' every time? Are rapists.
     
  13. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Which is also like the other person saying "I want Indian and we are having Indian, I don't care if the rice sticks in your teeth, I want Indian!"
     
  14. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    No, I never said that men who don't accept 'no' every time, are rapists.

    It may sound like it to you but I never said it.

    I'm the one defending the men who pester and persuade, how the heck can I be calling the men who don't accept 'no' the first time as rapists?
     
  15. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    And if they can't find a compromise on this, they're in an unhealthy relationship. Right?

    Now, again, when we're talking about sex, we get into the bodily autonomy issue, which makes it more complicated than picking restaurants. But in general, if someone in a relationship is guilting/nagging/tricking the other person into doing stuff? Not healthy.
     
  16. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    No, I said that men who don't accept 'no' are rapists. You said that most men don't accept 'no'.

    Are you saying that men who don't accept 'no' every time aren't rapists? I mean... if they don't accept 'no', that means they have sex with someone who's told them 'no', right? How is that not rape?
     
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  17. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Regardless of whether it's sex or not?

    This is the point. This is why the lines of rape/assault are so blurry. What constitutes rape? how many ifs and buts do you have to wade through before you actually look at a situation and say 'that was rape because ....' or 'that was not rape because ...'

    And there are so many ifs and buts to go through.
     
  18. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I'm not sure what you're referring to, but a couple that can't find agreement without resorting to guilt/nagging/trickery? Yeah, I think that's an unhealthy relationship whether they're guilting each other about restaurants, sex, or anything else.

    I honestly don't see the blurriness. Force or coercion? Rape. Unwanted sexual touching, where the perpetrator knows or should know the behaviour is unwanted? Sexual assault.

    A woman agreeing to have sex as a way to keep her partner from nagging her about it? Not illegal. Not healthy, in my opinion, but not illegal. She wasn't coerced and she wasn't forced. She just has an annoying boyfriend and should find someone better.
     
  19. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Back to persuasion, compromise.

    If my husband persuades me to have sex, by either kissing me a certain way or, you know, doing something nice/sensual/touchy/feeley, it's not rape (in my book)

    If a complete stranger grabs me of the street, drags me into an alley and forces me to perform or does, you know, then that, in my book, is rape.

    If a guy meets a girl in a bar, they get tipsy, he takes her to a room and she says, "actually, this is not a good idea" and he forces himself upon her, it's rape.

    If a husband asks, get's told no and decides to slap his wife or strangle her until she can no longer physically fight him off, it's rape.
     
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  20. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Yeah. I agree with all of these.

    So how are you seeing this as being a case of blurred lines?

    ETA: Oh, sorry, you were responding to a previous post from me.

    So, for the first example you gave, you eventually said yes, I assume? So he accepted the 'no', didn't have sex with you, UNTIL you said 'yes'. Therefore, not rape. He accepted the 'no'.
     
  21. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Is this easier if we reverse the genders? I've honestly never found, with myself or my friends with whom I discuss sex, that the stereotype of the man wanting sex and the woman not wanting it is accurate. I think it MIGHT be accurate if the man is really bad at sex... like, if he "enjoys himself" and the woman doesn't, then sure, yeah, she isn't going to want to have sex with him very often. But if a guy, or a couple, is good enough at sex that they both find it enjoyable and satisfying, then I don't think there's a pattern of men wanting sex more often than women do.

    So, if a woman wants sex and her partner doesn't? In my books, it's healthy for her to do things that will make it more likely that he'll change his mind and want sex. That could be sexy lingerie or it could be fixing the plumbing so he doesn't have to worry about doing that himself... whatever. If she takes steps to make him WANT to have sex, I think that's healthy.

    But if the only step she takes is to make it more unpleasant for him to not have sex than it would be to have sex? Like, instead of removing barriers, she just bullies him past them? I don't think it's rape, but it's not a good relationship, right?
     
  22. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    So you agree with the persuasion. (forgot to add to the first one, I'm not in the mood for it but her persuades me by doing the nice stuff.)

    Every case is unique. Every person is different. I think we've given the OP enough to think about.

    A lot of people will not see rape as rape unless it involves, a stranger/physical violence/drugs(of the date rape kind) or excessive drink which renders the victim unconscious and unable to say no.
     
  23. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    I can only reply from experience, so, here goes ...

    I have been married for 19 years. I was not a virgin when I got married but my hubster taught me many many things (he's older than me). Now, we cannot have kids. So there came a point in my life where I was turned off by the thought of sex. I was just not interested in it at all. The only things that ever went through my mind, was "Oh, God, I have to do this, then I have to get a shower, and I have to go to work, and it will still be bothering me in the queue at Tesco's tomorrow night ..."

    And we went through the roaming hands at two am, and the arguments of "full sacks!" and me saying "empty them yourself then." And at one point, one, morning after, I asked him "What would you say if I said that what we did last night could be classed as rape?"

    He was mortified. And I mean, ready to throw himself on hot coals to apologize.

    We talked, we sort of changed, we kind of made compromises. I didn't say no all the time but sometimes I did and that was OK. Fast forward to about 5 years ago and I changed again. We went through a rough patch concerning jobs and stuff and I suffered a stress related illness. I'd already written my first book but at the time of the illness, I lost 3.5 stone in weight, began writing fiction seriously and overnight, turned into some kind of sex fiend! Any time I could, I would be jumping on my hubs! Obviously, he's not going to refuse me, he thought all his birthdays had come at once. There were the odd occasions where he would say "I just can't do it, I'm knackered" and I would spend the night wide awake and frustrated, but that was the way it was.

    Now we've come full circle and settled back down, I rarely refuse him (only for obvious lady reasons) and he rarely refuses me.

    From a woman's point of view, there are many reasons why we say no. Women (especially in the media) have always been shown to be the "not tonight dear, I have a headache ..." types of people while men, have always been shown to be the sex-crazed fiends. You only have to look at cartoons to see this, remember the wolf, with his eyes popping out of his head and his tongue rolling across the table when a hot lady walks by? It's this kind of thing that convinces women that all men are (NOT RAPISTS) but are up for it anytime anywhere!
     
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  24. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I don't really think it's a good idea for me to comment or offer judgments or suggestions on your personal relationship - I hope you're happy where you are now and I hope it keeps working out for you! (I just read that over and I've made it sound as if I secretly AM making judgments about your relationship and just not saying them out loud, but that's honestly not what I mean! I just don't really know how to use one anecdote as a point one way or the other in this discussion).

    In terms of the ways men and women have always been shown - I think that's a pretty recent phenomenon, actually. Historically, at least in Western cultures, women were often portrayed as being lustful and weak and open to seduction - many of the oppressive laws against women were in place to 'protect' them from themselves. But yes, I agree, current pop culture definitely portrays men as more lustful. Still, I'm not sure what effect this has on our discussion? I guess makes men with lower sex drives and women with higher sex drives feel unnatural?
     
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  25. Chinspinner

    Chinspinner Contributor Contributor

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    Well, I'm back from the gym.
    With regard to this: -
    I was responding to this:-
    which was said to the back drop of this: -
    I snipped the last one for length.

    In my mind, I am not sure what scenario there is where I ignore her response of "no" and it isn't rape? (And I don't mean the "no" doesn't always mean "no" argument; people know when "no" actually means "no".)

    But it doesn't matter because you then clarified it with: -

    Personally, having to persuade someone reluctant for sex is quite a huge turn-off.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015

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