One of my many half-assed scribbles. I'll swap it for a self portrait one day. EDIT: I should make a note that there are quite a few people here who have masculine avatars but due to the way they post, I have thought of them as female... Book by its cover, I suppose.
Well my women that I write come in all types, mainly all of them aren't tough but since alot of them are over the age of 25 they act a certain way. They can be "tough" but you have to remember that women act certain ways about things. Femininity comes from the small details, women can still handle things like adults but there's the small differences in how they feel, act, and think about it.
Aha! This is a different issue, entirely. Anytime you can see an honest emotion to something, that helps. Think of how many times you see some sort of brute or ogre (often in cartoons, but this only makes the point that much more clear) melt into hugs and kisses with some cute little kitten. It's kind of the same thing. I did, but at some point you were getting argumentative with me so I looked up your profile and saw you were male. ;-)
First of all, your point is completely lost on me . When I read that, my first response was: Pah! Because women don't argue?!... Then I got it... I actually thought you were a fella until the Chicago liz penny dropped. You still could be for all I know, I dun know how ta' read deez new fangled interwebz.
One possibility could be that their biological clocks are ticking. Their bodies want to have babies and their heads are screaming No. Or the couple decide that one of them's going to retire for a while to raise their child and they're discussing who would make a good sperm donor. I get the feeling that in your world, the only differences are physical and that there are no expectations around what a women is compared to a man so that rather limits how you can show the female side.
This thread has gone a way beyond the original posting, but I just read the original, and hope I can make a contribution. This is a problem I had with a couple of my characters. I solved it by pretending the character was somebody I actually know, but of the opposite sex. I just based the personality of my character on this real person, and bingo. It worked. Fun, too. And they'll never know it was THEM...!
I had no point -- just to say that I looked at your profile and saw you were male, so I already knew you were a guy, unlike some others who hadn't done so. But actually I find women more argumentative than men. I always have an easier time working with men, but that's a whole other issue.
I find many men easier to work with than many women, and I believe that the deciding factor is whether the woman is a classic female "indirect speaker". A disagreement with an indirect speaker can take until the end of time to resolve. Edited to add: But I believe that indirect speech in women is a societal expectation, not an actual built-in trait.
THIS attitude and perspective is what's wrong with women in literature (as well as in society in general)! And, mad man, this is exactly what the OP stated did NOT want, manipulative characters. Truth be told, for the most part, all people, male or female, have both strong as well as compassionate, tender aspects about them. There is nothing weak about being sensitive to other people's feelings and needs. The weakness comes when one fails to do what is necessary because he or she is more afraid of some possible negative consequences. And, by the same token, strength is in doing what is necessary despite the awareness that there may be harsh, unsavory, and even difficult consequences to the actions. Men and women have been indoctrinated throughout history to accept women as "softer" than men. This stems from a time when childbearing - the primary directive of life, the continuation of the species - was so difficult and often resulted in the death of the childbearer or the offspring. Women were, therefore, tendered, set upon a pedestal. They are the continuation of the species and must be guarded and protected. Never mind that this is pure bosh! It became the standard and was carried down through the ages. Women stayed at home and cared for the children while the men when out and earned the daily bread. Do you know that, at the invention of the typewriter, women were not allowed to use them? Secretarial work was for men because the typewriter created the involvement of a machine! And, of course, women were far too delicate to use such a complex piece of equipment. And, god forbid you should have a woman doctor! All of that blood and, oh my heavens, a woman treating a man? Well, any woman who would want to do such a thing must be a harlot for certain. (let's not get into the discussion of why it was okay for male doctors to treat women however!) Strength has nothing to do with testicles. The question of strength, real, internal strength is in the mind, the psyche, the emotional courage of a person. And this has nothing to do with their OEM parts. It goes far deeper than that. The stereotypes of men being strong and women being frail and weak is just that, a stereotype and nothing more. And a grossly farfetched and inaccurate stereotype at that. Of course, on the side of physical strength, you have a very slight nod toward men simply because they have, again, by tradition, performed the more physical duties in society. Anatomically, of course, men and women have the same muscle structures. So, if those muscles are worked, developed, and toned in the same manner, they can be built to the same levels of strength, limited only by physical stature. Women do not have be whiney and manipulative and subservient to men to have a place in a world ... any world. All you have to do is look at the Celtic warrior queen Boudicca. Leader of the Iceni, she maintained an almost exclusively female tribe, borrowing men from villages and towns for the sole purpose of procreation in order to maintain the tribe. When Rome invaded the Celtic/Irish lands, although they ultimately lost against the superior numbers of the Roman legions, Boudicca and her tribes fought them off repeatedly and as well as any male military counterparts. Power can be taken either by force of will or of might. Strength can be found in both body and mind. There is absolutely no reason your strong women cannot be "feminine" as well as powerful. (Have you checked out Layla Ali in an evening gown?) As far as women pursuing "very masculine careers", I'm not sure just what you mean by that. Margaret Thatcher - British PM? Hillary Rodham Clinton? Condaleeza Rice? The countless women Justices of the US Supreme Court? Or perhaps you mean construction workers, auto mechanics, welders, things of that nature. Let me assure you. It happens all the time. Yes. It's still a rarity to find a woman CEO of a major corporation. The world is slow to break that barrier that men and women really are equal. (And the US is one of the slowest, only followed by certain Asian and Arabic countries.) But that doesn't mean they are not capable of handling the role. Sure some women are not yet ready for such responsibility. But, then, neither are many men!
The scenario I've found myself in several times is: I say, "I don't like that idea" or "I don't think that idea will work." A woman whose idea it was, either thinks or says something along the lines of "You f-ing bitch." A man whose idea it was says, "Oh yeah -- well, let's hear your better one." That said, I've worked with some women and gotten along famously with them. And there are plenty of men out there who don't like me, either.
Hmm. Inside my scenario, I find myself wondering if the woman expected you to play the indirect speech game and say "That's a great idea! Now, just to build on it..." instead of (gasp) using direct speech. With some woman, making a direct statement seems to be taken as barely short of throwing a punch.
I work for a company whose CEO is a woman, as well as a medical doctor. And it's the best company I have ever worked for. That isn't necessarily a cause and effect relationship, but I woulnd't ever think it's despite having a woman as CEO.
Yeah, when I've realized early on that I've got to treat someone with kid gloves, I can do that, despite the fact that it initially wastes time. Sometimes, however, I forget. Those patronizing kinds of games are not usually my top priority. Unfortunately, that occasionally gets me into some trouble.
Often groups that are led by women are found to be some of the most effective. The reasons for women being underrepresented at the top are numerous and complex.
Just to be sure: if a guy pinches her butt, she smiles at him and thanks him? I think 99% of the time, when a woman pinches a guy's ass, even if he finds her repulsive, he will be very friendly about it. If this is the case in your story, in the society in which the characters live, that's fine. If you mean that in the context of real life, I would have to disagree. Generally speaking, of course: I'm sure there are individuals who deviate from the behavior I have observed, but every single man/youth/boy I know believes that if a guy violate's a woman's right to choose who touches her and how (e.g. forces himself on her physically), she would be fully justified in cutting off his balls and feeding them to him. And all the guys I know would be more than glad to help in the process (although they'd probably leave the nut handling to the woman). And they'd think her totally badass instead of "cold." That has a huge effect on everything within the story: what is perceived as feminine and masculine in said society? Why? Are you looking to make the characters more feminine from the POV (if you will) of their society or ours? Actually, testicles do have at least something to do with physical strength: having functioning testicles means the body generates higher amounts of testosterone, and as every bodybuilder knows, testosterone is a key element in building bigger, stronger muscles. Likewise, the lack of testicles often results in lower levels of testosterone and higher levels of estrogen which, again, to most male athletes is considered a bad thing because it hinders muscle growth and extends recovery time among other things. According to research, thanks to their higher testosterone levels, men are generally able to build more muscle in a given amount of time than their female counterparts and hence also gain more physical strength (i.e. lift heavier weights, e.g). In sports where explosive (plyometric) strength is in a key role, such as weight lifting and hammer throwing, men's results are at least 30 % better than women's (Source: TieKu 15/2012). This is also likely the reason why even at the highest level, male body builders have more muscle mass than female body builders (even if they are of the same height) and male weight lifters are able to lift bigger weights than female weight lifters. However, this is not to say that a woman couldn't tear a man apart in combat. All she needs is to be a better fighter than her opponent. This is particularly true when weapons are involved (especially guns but swords as well since every healthy 12yo girl is strong enough to wield a longsword effectively). Perhaps this might be a way to draw attention to a character's femininity: she relies less (note that I don't say "solely") on raw power and more (not "only") on weapons. Guns are of course the great equalizers, but if you pit a skilled woman armed with a longsword against an unskilled man, even if he's bigger and physically stronger, she'll make minced meat out of the guy. Some people think it's fluff, but it is possible to use PMS:ing or menstruating as plot twists as well, both purely feminine traits (although some guys seem fully capable of PMS:ing 24/7 even if they never actually begin menstruating... I think). I've written a medieval fantasy with KaTrian in which one of the main characters (a female blacksmith, surprise surprise, who also trains fencing with the longsword) is having a particularly bad case of PMS and when an annoying brat throws her sword into a pond, the protagonist loses her temper and tosses the brat into the aforementioned pond. The kid almost drowns and even though the protagonist saves her, the kid runs away into a haunted ghost town and, of course, the brave heroine has to lead her pals there in search of the wronged child etc. etc. You know, it's a minor detail, but something that has an effect in a scenario, slight as it may be (I guess the male equivalent could be suffering of blue balls). Another purely feminine condition that can be used as a plot twist: in the same story another warrior woman has a faux pas with her boyfriend when coitus interruptus doesn't quite work that time, and she ends up pregnant.
I'm not a huge fan of dubbing this or that trait masculine or feminine cos I find it infinitely hard, but I'll try to come up with something. -if your characters are humans and there are two major sexes in the society, it's likely they have different roles. How do these roles affect your character? Does she feel anxiety when it comes to making kids or starting a family? Or maybe she doesn't while her female friend does, and that puzzles her. The behavior of men may also affect her behavior in urban settings. How would she dress when she goes out at night? Is she more careful about her drinking than her male pals? She won't be a man with a vag if you show how the outside world sees her, unless she's very androgynous. But she probably isn't awfully so if she gets sexual attention from men? (unless they've all been gay/bi) - sexuality: if she plays for the male team, she has to think about pregnancy. Hey, maybe the guy doesn't wanna pull it out on time, what to do, what to do... Or she gets pregnant and has to get an abortion. Butterfly Burning by Yvonne Vera had a haunting, scary scene of a woman performing an abortion to herself. Now that's tough! - physical attributes: if she's got boobs, C-cup or bigger, they can get annoying when horse-back riding or doing sports. Men probably don't curse their boobage during workouts as much as women might... of course, being very andro, this might not be a problem. Some less biologically inclined ideas: - in some cases, certain mental traits can be deemed more feminine, as in "women are wired this way," so yeah, she might've been a bit of a cry baby as a kid and think back to how hard it was to learn out of showing emotions. - she might have a soft spot for kids like many women seem to. I don't, though, so it's entirely possible to want to kick every toddler that toddles her way. - note that many men pull back when they fight women (some instinctive white knight -thingy?), while women seem to have no such need, no matter who they fight. - it's a stereotype but seems to hold true surprisingly often (maybe it's a self-fulfilling thing?), but women hate other women. Your lady might have a bit of an alpha female in her. Gotta best every other chick in the room. So much for sisterly bonds. You should see me at the boxing gym. It's childish, yeah, but... hey, no one's perfect. Hope this helps.
Please, Please DON'T do this. In this example, the action does not have to be because of the PMS. Does this mean a man could never have done this? There doesn't have to be a biological sex-linked reason for someone to do something unwise or even irrational. It is possible to get majorly pissed off and any action taken as a result be completely unrelated to the reproductive cycle. Although this can be true, it's often less so amongst a group of women who are all involved in a more stereo-typically male activity. They might just as easily find a kinship with other women who do have similar interests and outlooks (and have all decided to become military markspeople or whatever the OP is writing about.) So I'd tread carefully on putting in this dynamic.
Thanks for stopping by Trian, I'll clarify that I'm talking about violent assault. Not flirting . I agree with you wholeheartedly, in the story they cut them to pieces. I was looking for validation.... I'm a sad little man, thanks . Our world. Very good idea. I need to better establish in my mind the role of women as women in the world. But it's difficult, because I've tried to make this fantasy setting quite modern in that respect and sexism in modern society is much more complicated than it was in the middle ages. ... I nearly turned to tears just now, my enter key stopped working . Onward! It's good to see some referencings regarding the difference in strength - Only a fool would debate that a weedy IT worker is stronger than the female ju-jitsu champion, but that doesn't mean women in general are physically stronger than men. Sport really is the best way to illustrate the physical differences between men to women. The more I read peoples responses the more I realise I have already incorporated a lot of it into the character. One of my characters is short and petite, about five and a half feet and probably (when I think about it) about fifty five kg. So, to make her compete with other swordsmen I gave her a different style of fighting. In the world, most, fight with heavy double edged long and broad swords. She (and this wasn't planned, it just happened), travelled to a different continent briefly and picked up a different fighting style; using bucket hilt rapier she was trained to fight smoothly. Rapid jabs and sly parries, using the slower speed, and weight of her assailants weapons against them. Most people consider use of brute force very masculine, so her fighting style, I suppose, is feminine. I've purposely avoided PMS as a reason for anything. But, knowing some of the women I do..... With a bit of research it could actually make female readers empathise with the character more. On the other hand, I worry it might trivialise the character. I want males readers to think "she's a badass, doesn't take shit from anyone! Hot!" not "Oh, she's just on her period... women" chortle chortle. Well actually it doesn't.... It happens sometimes. I took a welding course and out of the (about) twenty five people there, one was a woman. I dated an engineer, she was one of twelve women in a course of more than 150. Margaret Thatcher was the first and only female prime-minister in England. My partner is studying mechanics, but I've never been to an auto-shop and seen a woman working. I've never once had a female trades-woman(??) come to my house, and I've had a lot here. These industries are crying out for female workers. But, for whatever reason, women in general don't want to do them.
I would suggest you continue to avoid PMS. It's chock-full of harmful stereotypes that is bound to get you in trouble. In some ways, menstruation is like pooping. It's a natural cycle that's important for the body, but doesn't need to be included in a story for the character to seem real. However, in Game of Thrones, I thought it was done well when a character has her first period, because her being of age to bear children was extremely important to her plot line.
Very helpful. The character is bi-sexual, and her partner is gay. So it throws another spanner in the works haha. I'm not sure of cup-size, but she straps her breasts with linen - not to appear as a man, so they don't encumber her fighting. I had a conversation with a friend about her bust and gym habits a couple of years ago. Dylan Moran has a bit about women hating other women. In my experience it's true in more cases than its not, though most of the time is is disguised. I'll be introducing more female characters later on, but at the moment there are only two, and I haven't applied much rivalry between them. Liz covered it. Sell-swords. Medieval mercenaries. It's not really applicable, because there are so few women who travel around as they do. The ones who are, tend to be powerful wizards (yes I meant wizards, witch is a derogatory term for magic users in my world)... Yet another source of confusion no doubt. I would have been more inclined to portray mutual respect between women in their industry, as opposed to cattyness - but rivalry can be endearing too.
You appear not to have read my entire post or perhaps you just missed these parts: And as for the male part: Bolding added by yours truly. But just in case I worded my message poorly (I often do that even if inadvertently, being an EFL speaker, and apologize for that), what I mean is this: PMS:ing plays a small role in the scene, the character losing her temper. To shed some light on the background of the situation: other things that play a part are stress, PTSD, being wounded/in pain, and not having had an opportunity to clean/wash/bathe/change in quite a long time (so the wounds are itchy/infected and she's still not used to the discomforts of life on the road), to name but a few. The point being, when you add many smaller things, the combined end result can sometimes be bigger than any of the smaller things alone might have caused. This time the kid's cruel taunts and tossing the character's blade into the pond just happened to be the straw that broke the camel's back. But that doesn't change the fact that even a single smaller thing plays a part. Slight as it may be. I also specified a possible male equivalent: blue balls. A very annoying and often even painful condition that can easily make a man antsy, pissy, easily annoyed, even easily enraged if provoked. And yes, a man could definitely have done the same. Fact is, in the previous scene, a young man (belonging to the same group as the heroine and the brat) is suffering (incidentally) of blue balls and the very same brat tried to piss him off intentionally (because the brat is like that; enjoys causing mayhem). In the end the usually calm and polite guy ended up slapping the kid in the face because she was so offensive and persistent in driving him over the edge, so to speak. So yeah, definitely something a guy could do as well (and in this particular story, does). Now that I think about it, it's possible including the PMS-thing wasn't even my idea, but my female writing partner's. I'll check when she wakes up. We just found it funny that in many medieval fantasy stories (even those clearly striving for gritty, harsh realism), women can travel on the road at times for months and never seem to menstruate. Yeah, some do consider it fluff and it can make some boys queasy, but since we like to color our story's world with the less polished side of realism as well, we include things like the two aforementioned conditions, female and male, albeit in very small doses. Regardless, a man reading the story ought to be an idiot to scoff "women" at the scene in question when a representative of his sex did the same thing in the previous scene (even if the end result, a slap in the face vs. a quick splash in a pond, was a tad different). If you disagree, we can just agree to disagree, no problem AVCortez, have you read A Song of Fire and Ice by G. R. R. Martin? Without commenting on the series as a whole, it has a terrific character, Brienne of Tarth (my favorite character in the series) who is both, physically and, in a way, mentally very strong, very skilled with the sword, yet still has this aura of... well, vulnerability and innocence about her. I loved the contrast as well as the originality of the character (too few authors have the guts to write a female POV character who doesn't fit the usual Western beauty standards). Edit: funkybassmannick, the story actually does contain one scene where pooping is involved. It's just a side clause somewhere but it's there alright. In this case a guy accidentally drops a nugget in his pants when facing a man-eating tree nymph for the first time. Sure, it may alienate some readers, but, then again, some (although not many, actually all who have read the story so far) have enjoyed the uglier version of realism we write. Can't please everyone, to each their own and all that, right?
No, I read your post, including the parts you re-emphasized. I personally find it ridiculous to ever include PMS as a reason for anything, unless we're talking about some really medically unusual condition, where psychosis is induced, which is not a typical PMS. There are people, including women, who are overly-obsessed with this issue. In most cases, it simply is not relevant, and it provides a nice sexist, illegitimate basis upon which to treat women differently. Blue Balls is really not the same thing. I have never heard of situations where a man becomes angry and storms off, for example, and the people who remain in the room say, "What's wrong with him? He must have blue balls." There's also a pretty easy cure for that condition.
Has has KaTrian ever travelled for an extended period of time? It's actually interesting, because one of the things I've heard women rave about concerning travel is that they never get their period. Though it is not the case for everyone - it is something to consider. I think it has something to do with the rate hormones are produced when a woman feels secure, as opposed to on the road. Before people go into a fit about nomadic tribes, remember that they'd be as comfortable and secure in the travelling life as the majority feel at home. I started reading game of thrones but found it to be a massive chore. I would become involved in one plot line then find myself more than annoyed when it shifted. Love the TV show though. Briene is great, but in the show seems quite flat. When vulnerability is expressed it seems more like a launching point to show she's really just a girl-the hound. I might pick up the Song of fire and Ice for the soul purpose of reading her POV as it sounds like it has much more depth.
Really? What about? "What's wrong with him? He needs to get laid." I've heard that hundreds of times, I've said it myself. It is the same thing as saying blue balls.
