Trusting the reader and how it affects how your writing

Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by Alesia, Dec 27, 2013.

  1. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    ... or Delany or Miéville. All authors who were/are unapologetic in their expectation of the reader.
     
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  2. Fitzroy Zeph

    Fitzroy Zeph Contributor Contributor

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    Yeh, but it sure helps an also-ran like myself get their footing. I'm pretty sure the geniuses of the world see beyond those sorts books pretty quickly. If you really are getting bogged down in your writing because of a how to book then I'd suggest you're not a genius.
     
  3. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

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    I agree but the proponent on these sites ( all writing sites not just this one ) seems to push how-to manuals, writing classes, writing groups. While there is nothing inherently bad with any of these things a lot of times they can miss bigger issues.

    They're pushing the same structure, the same format, and frequently the same pace. The only thing that's left that will stand out is your plot - which 7 out of 10 stories on a writing site bare an amazing similarity with what's already being published ( I'm totally guilty of this ) - or your voice.

    But often times a voice can get boiled right out of a story with a paranoid focus ( am I doing this right rather than does it sound right can I get away with this ) on structure, craft, rules.

    Writing is about communicating. Communication takes all forms and doesn't necessarily have to be so rigid.

    A genius usually never knows they're a genius - alot of times they're just struggling to be understood by the masses same as us.
     
  4. Fitzroy Zeph

    Fitzroy Zeph Contributor Contributor

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    I guess that's all part of the learning process. In end though, if a person goes about learning to write only using a read and analyze method and then goes and writes a great piece of fiction, I'll bet you that there is a very high probability that that work could be described using the methods from either Swain of Bickham.
     
  5. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Supporter Contributor

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    I want to make clear that it's not that I don't think Swain and Bickham have anything valuable to say. They do, for some people and for some kinds of fiction. All I want to point out is that their advice is inadequate and incomplete, and sometimes even wrong, for other writers writing other kinds of fiction. They do not have all the answers for everybody.

    We're not all writing Harlequin Romances or pulp sci-fi or lurid paint-by-numbers crime novels. We're not all writing disposable fiction. We're not all writing what @JayG calls "commercial fiction." I doubt most writers who are passionate about their work, who are pouring every ounce of themselves into their work, would regard that work as commercial fiction. It's our art, our testament to the world.

    We agree that writers must become skilled at the craft, but the craft we need is the craft that serves our art. It's not necessarily Swain's craft, or Bickham's. If that makes it harder for us to find a publisher, so be it.
     
  6. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    No one does. It is a truth. ;)
     
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  7. Alesia

    Alesia Pen names: AJ Connor, Carey Connolly Contributor

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    I think this sums up every one of my points about how I view my stories, why I won't sell them to a commercial publisher, and why I reject Bickham's how-to book perfectly. I'm not out to write "commercial fiction" that appeals to millions of people. I'm out to tell a small series of stories that lie very close to my heart, and publish them myself in a non-profit e-book format (e.g. those books you see on Kindle listed as $0.00.) I am pouring every ounce of my soul into them because my MC is for all intents and purposes me. The situations described in my plot line actually happened at some point in my life, though they have been slightly altered in my writing to protect my identity and the identities of those involved. I've taken a look at these how-to books and honestly, they don't suit my purposes because I'm not writing thrillers, mystery, sci-fi, or any of that other stuff they are geared toward.

    If anyone is curious about the style I'm going for, pick up a copy of I Hope They Serve Beer In Hell by Tucker Max. I'm sure anyone following the advice of how-to books would have a field day picking that one apart, though the "chapters" are based off a series of viral blog posts.

    My other stories? I prefer to write them in first person, present tense ala Sophie Kinsella. Anyone who is familiar with her work knows she is a multi-award winning author who has five or more novels on the New York Times bestseller list, yet when I posted an excerpt from her work, certain users tore into her as structuring her scenes in a completely improper fashion. My point? Strictly following the "rules" of scene and structure isn't necessarily required to net you a contract, or a spot on the bestseller list.
     
  8. JayG

    JayG Banned Contributor

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    Not really. It's not being able to get a yes that says you don't know with any certainty what works and what doesn't.

    I find it interesting that in all this hubbub not one single technique has been mentioned by anyone other than me. It's been general, like, "Lots of writers have..." Or perhaps, "There are many ways of..." And while that's true, the idea of blanket accepting or rejecting something that's never defined seems a poor way of learning to write with skill. To say that reading books on technique, books filled with hundreds of ideas and concepts, is unnecessary, makes no sense, even were there only a few things that can be gotten that way, that might not be obvious via other paths. Only if in reading such books or taking courses you will get bad information can you legitimately say to avoid them.

    What, for example, are all the books in agreement with that you feel is wrong? And why? That would be a literary discussion, and perhaps help people write with more skill. To say that you personally find them unnecessary, and at the same time not be able to point to success using that alternate technique seems a pretty indefensible position.

    I don't know about you, but I don't come here to talk in general terms. When I do a critique I talk about specific problems and how they might contribute to making the reader love or hate the story. And though I don't, in general like to point to my own accomplishments as an example, my ratio of posts to people who have liked that post are running better then 50%, so apparently, there are a fair number of people who feel that what I have to say makes some sense.
    Perhaps not, a fountain of wisdom, but you can be pretty certain that anyone who can't duplicate that feat must be doing something wrong. Problem is that they don't know what it is. And the advice they give you might be just the thing that's getting them rejected. They, obviously don't know what's causing those rejections, and the one getting the advice certainly has no way of knowing. The problem with advice is that if we're missing the same information the one giving the advice is, that advice will sound pretty good to us, too. That's why I tend to go with Holly Lysle's advice of: Michaelangelo did not have a college degree, nor did Leonardo da Vinci. Thomas Edison didn't. Neither did Mark Twain (though he was granted honorary degrees in later life.) All of these people were professionals. None of them were experts. Get your education from professionals, and always avoid experts.” Me, I'm an expert, not a professional. That's why I steer people to the pros. Bad advice can kill a writing career, and I'm not willing to accept responsibility for that. You?

    Of course they are. Every time someone says, "There are many other ways of learning the same thing," in response to a remark that education is necessary they're saying just that. They say it when they point to someone and claim that such and such an author achieved success with no training (it's almost invariably wrong, but that's another issue)
    I'm sorry I've made you so angry you feel the need to stoop to personal insults. That wasn't my intention. I'd prefer to discuss what people can learn by sitting down with a publisher book and what they can't, so we can help people who might not know that.
     
  9. Alesia

    Alesia Pen names: AJ Connor, Carey Connolly Contributor

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    I also prefer to discuss things in a calm manner, but sometimes there can be lines that should simply not be crossed. I'll admit, there are many things you say that make legitimate sense, but the problem is this: To some your advice can come off as sounding a bit on the arrogant side, somewhat insulting, and like you are repeatedly bashing us over the head with Bickham's book as though it's the only path to learning how to become a successful author. Maybe that's not your intent, but it's the honest truth, as pointed out to me by several people via the PM system. I think a lot more people would be open to coming around to your way of thinking if perhaps you changed your tone a bit.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014
  10. JayG

    JayG Banned Contributor

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    You're saying that as if they're alternates, as in schools of thought. I'll buy that there is a huge body of craft, but they are not mutually exclusive, and the writer should be knowledgeable in all the tools of the writer. You're talking in generalities, but we don't write in generalities. In the real world, if you look at the posted writing is this or any other online site you will see that except for a precious few, they are all written with the compositional techniques we're given in high school. The words change. The plot changes. But the structure is identical. We're not talking about nuance and genre, we're talking about the equivalent of grammar and punctuation—first grade stuff for a writer.

    I just redid an experiment I've done many times before. I went to the workshop, chose Novel, picked a random spot on a page and started evaluating the posted work as an editor would (I chose a random spot so as to not point at anyone's work). In all ten cases the work would have been rejected within two paragraphs. Most before the end of the first. Seven of them were written in the report format they teach us in school and three were transcriptions of a storyteller speaking. All were written by sincere, dedicated people, who want to please their reader, but who have no idea of the basics of storytelling on the page. And that's been the result every time I've conducted that test.

    I'm not talking about work that can be improved, or even if the person writing has a flair for image and word usage. In addition to the basic approach errors I'm talking about not taking into account the three questions a reader wants answered quickly on entering a scene. I'm talking about including a scene goal and introducing tension, kindergarten issues when it comes to the profession.

    These are decent people who are trying as hard as they can to please their reader. And if what you suggest was even remotely valid, at least one of them would not be getting every point wrong.
    That's a meaningless statement. One kind of what? How do they, specifically differ from the unnamed others you refer to. Surely you're not saying that only people who believe as Bickham does write books on the subject? Who are these others and where can I find their viewpoints? Because I worked as a chapter librarian of my writing group I have a fair quantity of books on the subject. From what I can see they're pretty well in agreement. Is there a secret society of writers using four act structures and advocating the usage of high school English as a professional tool?
     
  11. JayG

    JayG Banned Contributor

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    What you're saying is that it's therapy for you. That's a perfectly valid reason for writing. It is not a valid reason for disparaging the things you have no need of because your goal is personal introspection.

    Given that you have no interest in pleasing the reader or a publisher of course this subject is of no interest to you. The question is if you have something of value to contribute. I don't mean that as an insult. I mean that if the craft of the writer is of no interest why are you weighing in on how to acquire it and the value of the various approaches?
     
  12. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Supporter Contributor

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    Pardon me if I change the order of some of the quotes. If they pertain to the same issue, I want to take them on together.

    I don’t know about others here, but I’m pretty sure the main reason I haven’t sold a novel to a publisher, or had one accepted by an agent, is that I’ve never submitted one. I’ve never completed a novel to my satisfaction. I’ve completed some short stories and a novella, but I’ve only submitted them anywhere three times. I have two rejection slips in my collection (as an adult – the first story I ever submitted anywhere was written when I was fourteen, and was, of course, rejected), and one story still pending.

    You’ve made the point elsewhere that, if no writing craft is required (which is not what we are arguing), the bestseller lists would be full of books by teenagers. I don’t know why you think this. The vast majority of teenagers, even ones who want to be writers, aren’t on the bestseller lists primarily because they’ve never actually completed a novel, let alone submitted one anywhere. They’re too young. They haven’t done the work yet.

    It’s not that we’re incompetent. It’s not that we have no talent. It’s not that we don’t know what we’re doing. It’s just that we haven’t finished what we’re doing. We haven’t submitted anything anywhere. Please stop using our lack of publications as evidence that we don’t know what we’re talking about. It’s not evidence of that.

    First point: I think some books on writing craft can help. What I object to is your insistence that Swain and Bickham are the ones we must read. I’ve read many, many books on writing, and the ones that speak most clearly to me, and to my purpose, are those by John Gardner: The Art of Fiction and On Becoming a Novelist. Gardner was a curmudgeon, and may have been slightly crazy, but he was a celebrated, bestselling novelist and also a celebrated teacher of writing at several universities and the Bread Loaf Writers’ Conference.

    Second point – regarding mentioning specific techniques: I don’t think in terms of specific techniques of what to do; if I think in terms of technique at all, it’s in terms of what not to do. But since you asked, here are some things I’m concerned with:

    I subscribe to Gardner’s idea of the vivid and continuous dream. That’s what the writer is trying to give the reader. Vividness comes from the inclusion of closely observed, specific, and appropriate details. By “closely observed,” I mean details that are not obvious, not cliches. It’s not about hair and eyes. It’s about gesture, action, voice. Etc. By “specific,” I mean that rather than saying, “He took a sip of his drink,” you write, “He took a sip of his Glenlivet and water.” Or, even better, “He picked up the cut glass tumbler and breathed in the liquor-laden air off the surface of his Glenlivet and water, letting it fill his airway before he took a sip.” That’s not great, but it’s more specific. By “appropriate,” I mean using imagery that belongs in the setting. You don’t say, “Smaug the dragon roared like a Harley-Davidson’s engine revving.” There are no Harley-Davidsons in Middle Earth, so don’t use that image. It pulls the reader out of the story.

    I like being aware of the sound of my prose. I read my stuff aloud, making sure the rhythm is right and that there are no unintentional rhymes or alliteration. I like using prose to emphasize the action being described. For example, somewhere on this forum someone once posted a paragraph from Cormac McCarthy in which he described a train going by. The central sentence was a long, nearly commaless sentence that perfectly communicated the rush of speed of the train, the sound of the wheels and the wind, and only when the train was gone did the sentence end and shorter sentences took its place. It worked very well, though some here were confused as to why McCarthy would do a thing like that. They thought it was bad writing, when it was, in fact, remarkably good.

    There are other things I could mention, but in order to keep this post to a reasonable length (yeah, right), I won’t do so now.

    I kinda hate this quote, because it’s illogical and misleading. Both Michelangelo and da Vinci served long apprenticeships. Besides, the “always avoid experts” statement does not follow from the first statements.

    And, for the record, it’s Holly Lisle, not Holly Lysle.

    No, they are not. At this point, I’m beginning to think you are being deliberately obtuse. They are acknowledging that learning craft is necessary. But as I said above, it’s not all the same craft. Priorities are different for different writers. For example, you keep harping on the three things readers need to know going into any scene. I don’t even think in those terms. As a reader, I don’t even particularly care about those three things, so long as I get the gist eventually. I don’t judge books or writers based on the first page or three pages; I usually give a book several chapters. If the author hasn’t convinced me he knows what he’s doing by then, I put the book aside.

    You keep bringing up the scenario of a shopper in a bookstore, idly picking up my book at random and looking at page 1. If I don’t hook him right away, you say, he’ll put the book down and buy something else. That scenario almost never happens to me. I read books because they’re recommended by friends or family, or because I’ve read reviews in the New Yorker or Harper’s or elsewhere, or I’ve read interviews with the author, etc. I don’t buy books at random. I get interested in a book long before I enter the bookstore, or go onto Amazon. I know what I’m getting into when I buy a book. Does that make me unusual? I don’t really think so. If the random shopper doesn’t buy my book, I don’t mind. I want readers who are like me. After all, they’re the ones who will be most likely to appreciate my work.
     
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  13. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Supporter Contributor

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    Um, no offense, but above you told me that you couldn't make it to chapter 3 of East of Eden - a novel that scores 4.6/5 stars on Amazon, with 600 five-star reviews against only 16 1-star reviews. (And some of the 1-star reviews were complaining about not receiving the book in the first place, or that Oprah recommended it, or that it was in poor condition when it arrived, etc.) Are you sure you're qualified to say these people get "every point wrong"? You are obviously entitled to your opinion, but doing an experiment such as the one you've outlined implies that you have an expertise and objectivity I frankly doubt you possess. I doubt any of us possess it. I doubt any single professional editor or publisher or agent possesses it. If evaluating writing were a matter of simply ticking off boxes on a checklist, then all publishers would agree on what's good and what's bad, and Harry Potter would have been accepted by the first publisher it was submitted to. So would many classics, from Dubliners to A Confederacy of Dunces and beyond.

    But editors and publishers disagree, and some miss out on fortunes. Others go out of business because they get it wrong too often. Some strike it rich. Some publish brilliant work that appeals only to a few, and scrape by however they can. Publishers disagree. Checklists don't work. How can you claim your experiment has any validity?
     
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  14. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Perhaps you might want to alter your approach to the forum a bit.

    I have noticed quite a few places in the forum where your words are extremely helpful—and I've freely 'liked' these posts. (I'm never going to get my million little green dots, am I? :)) However, unfortunately, you do come across as heavy-handed (and one-dimensional) in some other places.

    Instead of immediately directing the writer of any piece to a how-to book of your choice, why not grapple with what they've written yourself?

    Look at what they've done, and offer specific suggestions to improve that particular bit of writing. Ask questions about what they're trying to achieve, then offer suggestions on how they can achieve it. This would give these writers something concrete to work on. Sometimes a very simple, but concrete example, related to what they've written, can make the penny drop in a writer's head. Suddenly they 'get' what you are trying to show them.

    By all means, THEN direct them to a book which has helped you in that area. But do apply your learned expertise to their work. Pretend you're writing their story yourself. What would YOU do to improve it? Don't just point out all the mistakes they've made, and order them to go learn their craft elsewhere. Offer helpful, specific suggestions. That's what a critique is. A critique isn't just: 'hey, you're obviously not professional, go take a course, read a book, etc.'

    Lots of different approaches work. Terry Pratchett is an enormously successful author. So is Salman Rushdie. Ian Rankin. Donna Tartt. (I choose these modern, best-selling authors because I'm presently reading books by all four of them.) They don't all follow the same structural and stylistic formula, do they?

    I spent my academic life studying works of fiction, and while that doesn't necessarily equip me to write my own (it certainly doesn't hurt!) it does give me an overview on what works and what doesn't.

    I don't read commercial fiction, and I have no interest in writing it. I want to write the best novel I can, and have been studying on my own for years. I began writing my novel in 1995, finished my first draft in 2002, and am still working on the edit. (I have also started a second.) I have not approached anybody for publication yet, because I'm still receiving helpful—and very positive—feedback from beta readers.

    I am still doing edits, and have cut more than a third from my over-written original draft. I've reorganised chapters so they focus the story more neatly than they did in the original. I've eliminated 'favourite' chapters because they stalled the story, or because they repeated facts I've already told the reader elsewhere. I've removed modifiers, taken a stun-gun to passages that verge on melodrama. I've even re-written a couple of chapters using a different POV, because it worked better than my original conception. So I am still working, and working hard. Only when I feel it's 'done,' will I go for publication. However, when I look back on my first efforts, I see TONS of progress, and I now feel I'm nearly there.

    I have never written to formula, and have allowed my 'structure' to develop along with the story itself. I'm very happy with the way it's turning out, as are my recent beta readers.

    I have no intention of making my living as a writer (I'm retired now) but I do want my book to be the best it can be. I doubt very much that Jack Bickham will like it. But that's okay by me. I don't like his stuff either, and yes, I've owned a couple of his 'how-to' books, which were not helpful to me–unlike many others. Bickham advocates slickness over substance every time—the writer's equivalent of the X-Factor—which is not me at all. Okay, it makes for 'readable' and possibly saleable fiction ...but memorable? I don't think so.

    How many people, when asked: 'What is your favourite book of all time?' would choose a Jack Bickham? Or even their favourite TEN books of all time? Just wondering...

    All novels are not the same. They don't all share the same structure or style. They don't all appeal to the same kinds of readers. Some people (like myself) revel in a slow start. I dislike gimmicky beginnings; a too-obvious 'hook' will put me off, right away. I don't like the niggling thought that a writer has to trick me into reading their book by delivering a whammy opening sentence.

    Like @minstrel, I don't stand in bookstores reading the first lines of novels either. I check out lots of other things about the book (its cover and blurb, to get an idea of what the story is about) and usually read a few lines picked at random in the middle of the book, to see if I will enjoy reading that author's particular style. I also go by recommendations and reviews.

    I don't mind taking a while to settle into a story. In fact, I love doing that. And I BUY books. LOTS of books. The kind I like to read. They are not Jack Bickhams.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014
  15. Alesia

    Alesia Pen names: AJ Connor, Carey Connolly Contributor

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    EXACTLY! And not only have a majority of us never submitted a novel period, some of us (like me) have certain viewpoints on corporations and commercial publishing, therefore never will. I would appreciate it if people would refrain from using my political beliefs as a lynch pin to say I'm ignorant about the industry. I personally have never attempted to submit a full novel to any publisher. The simple fact is, I've never finished one to date. Non-fiction periodicals however, have netted me a total of seventeen acceptance letters, and honestly of all the rejections I've gotten over the years, it wasn't due to the quality of the writing, it was stated by the editor that my article was based on a subject that had already been covered by their magazine within the last six months or so (these are hobby and R/C car periodicals.) I bring that up to show I am by no means ignorant about how the industry works, I just want no part of it. Please respect that and stop using my lack of published novels, or my desire to self-publish as a barometer of my intelligence level, work ethic, or the validity of my work. And before you deny that you said anything of the sort, the implication is here:

    The craft of the writer is definitely of interest to me, not the way you push it. Refer to some of my above posts. It may not be your intent, but you come of as full of yourself and well... offensive. There are some people out there that will reject your opinions because of that. What I'm in disagreement with you over is your apparent opinion that Bickham and Swain are the only paths to learning the craft, and your lack of willingness to accept the viewpoints of multiple posters on the basis that--aside from you--we are all a bunch of ignorant amateurs who would be totally lost if it wasn't for the advice of our resident published author.

    No offense, but I took the time to read some of your work on Amazon preview. It was good, but to me it read like James Patterson, Nicholas Sparks, Jason Pinter, or any of the other numerous "commercial writers" out there. And I don't blame you, because you follow the same formula they all do. It's what I meant about "cookie-cutter" writers. As @minstrel said, not every reader wants cookie-cutter fiction, nor does every reader want to purchase it. Personally, I find "commercial fiction" lacking substance, only existing for the sake of making the author and some corporation a few bucks. To be honest, if I pick up a book and it reads like the above, I will put it down before I've finished a page. I prefer slower starts (like East Of Eden) and works that really stand out, like Irvine Welsh's wonderful use of phonetic dialogue that gets you reading along in a Scottish accent within a few paragraphs; Sophie Kinsella's hilarious one-liners and the purposeful grammar mistakes Daniel Keyes uses in Flowers For Algernon.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014
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  16. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    Another thing to keep in mind is that there is no authority when it comes to writing fiction. At the end of of the day, all you have is a bunch of opinions from a bunch of writers. That's all.
     
  17. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    A truth has been spoken.
     
  18. AJC

    AJC Active Member

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    Surely some opinions are worth more than others?
     
  19. Alesia

    Alesia Pen names: AJ Connor, Carey Connolly Contributor

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    Possibly, but like I said, it all boils down to the manner in which that opinion is presented that will determine whether or not anyone pays attention to it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014
  20. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    I suppose, yes, but they're still opinions.
     
  21. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Supporter Contributor

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    Sure. @JayG's opinion is worth a lot more than a five-year-old's, or even an adult's, if that adult doesn't read fiction and knows nothing about writing it. But most of us here have studied the craft in some way (taking courses, reading how-to books, analyzing published novels, etc.) and have some experience actually trying to write. We post examples of our work here and get feedback, so we know what's working and what isn't. We're critical of our own work, often becoming frustrated with ourselves because we know something isn't working but we don't know how to fix it. When that happens, we ask questions here, and our fellow writers offer suggestions.

    All that makes us more than just ignoramuses. We're serious about this, and our opinions have validity.

    Eudora Welty told a story about when she was a young writer. She had no confidence in her own work, and had written a love scene into her first novel. She didn't know if it was any good, so she summoned up her courage and sent the scene to William Faulkner (that must have taken guts!). She'd never met him before, nor even corresponded with him. He was kind enough to look at it and sent her a note that said, "Well, honey, that's not how I would do it, but you go right ahead!"

    I've always liked that story.
     
  22. Poziga

    Poziga Contributor Contributor

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    This reeaally made me smile. What a nice thing of him to do! :)
     
  23. JayG

    JayG Banned Contributor

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    And that in some way validates your advice as being accurate as a publisher views it? You haven't submitted your work because you were pretty sure it would be rejected. By the way, I looked, and it's dramatically improved.
    Because we all leave high school with the same set of writing skills. If that were adequate we would begin selling YA stories right then, or before graduation, and the stories in the high school lit mags would be reprinted by national magazines.
    A specious argument. Count the number of twenty-year olds who make it. They've had two years. And in any case we get lots of teens posting work here. And if you change the word novel to short story why doesn't it improve? On the other hand, Jim Butcher, who wrote the Dresden Files series began to sell his work in his junior year at Oklahoma University, where he was studying commercial fiction writing.

    But forget that. You're not a new grad, and you say you're not ready yet. Why not, if you have all the techniques you need? Why aren't there more people who post here making the cut? The simple fact is that publishers and agents reject over 80% of what they receive before the end of the first paragraph. And if you can't hold your customer's interest for a single paragraph you have to be doing something pretty basic wrong.
    Of course it's that you don't know what you're doing. We have no way of knowing how to write fiction for the printed word because it's not part of our education. There's no shame or stigma in that. I had no clue, and tried to write six novels before I had a paid critique and learned that I'd been wasting my time. The lack of knowledge isn't in question because in our schooling we're taught none of the necessary techniques for writing fiction. The question is if we can fumble our way into it by reading what others wrote and trying to guess at what matters, or if talking to and reading the pros about issues of writing fiction, first, is a better way. Talking about it with people whose knowledge of writing matches ours, and doesn't include knowing what editors want to see—and don't want to see—cannot possibly equate to talking to someone who makes their living through their writing.
    An interesting experiment: see if you can find any place where I've used the word, "must." I've said only that they are the best I've found for learning the nuts-and-bolts issues. So you're objecting to something I've never said. And you just gave a recommendation of your own. :)

    Have someone else read it to you. When you read your own work you place the appropriate emotion and inflection into your voice because you know how you want it read. And as you read you know the proper expression and hand gestures. You whisper and growl as needed. But will the reader? Unlike you, they're not driven by intent. Having the computer read it to you is much better because it's how a reader will "hear" it.
    You miss the point. This forum, and all online forums are filled with experts, who will be glad to tell you, "This is what I do."
    Don't you take the time to look at the work of the people saying that? Except for damn few, when someone says there are many ways of learning craft their work says thay've taken no steps to learn any. And when pressed, you get the usual, "I learn by reading and analyzing novels," as if that's a viable way of achieving publication.
    And as a result you're a published writer? You've just made my point. You're saying that it's not necessary to address those questions as if you know it to be true. Yet in your latest revision you do answer them, and quickly, which is one of the reasons it's so much of an improvement over the previous version, where you didn't.
    I find that had to believe, because confusion cannot be removed retroactively, and readers will stop reading if they're confused or bored for one line while they're deciding to read or not read. And this isn't supposition or opinion. Readers want to know whose skin their wearing. It's why your protagonist should have a name and characteristics that make them unique. They want to know where they are in time and space. Learning, two pages after the start, that they're in ancient Rome, when the story seemed as if it was on a farm today, is a rejection getter. And people want to know what's going on. How in the hell can we identify and support the protagonist when we're learning detail about a situation we know nothing about? These are kindergarten items so far as writing, but not one in ten postings of stories provide that necessary detail because the writer knows the information but doesn't know the reader doesn't, because the only POV is that of the writer (though they think the POV character s the one they're talking about).
    And if you write with the belief that readers are the same, and don't kook them by page three, you will be rejected. Actual studies in bookstores say that the average reader spends no more then three pages in making the decision. And I submit to you that though you may read further, if the writing didn't capture your interest within three pages and make you want to know more, you, too, would have stopped reading. I m not making up those stats. Booksellers and publishers have to know things like that so they can select work that will sell. Using yourself as the measuring stick, and saying, "That's not how it happens to me," has no connection to the publishing world. It's their football so we play by their rules. And their rules say, "Hook me in less than three pages or your audition is over." To quote a successful publisher (as well as writer, screenwriter, playwright, and editor, Sol Stein:“A novel is like a car—it won’t go anywhere until you turn on the engine. The “engine” of both fiction and nonfiction is the point at which the reader makes the decision not to put the book down. The engine should start in the first three pages, the closer to the top of page one the better.”
     
  24. JayG

    JayG Banned Contributor

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    Yes, I am. And they did, because they're using nonfiction compositional techniques—the only ones they know. I owned a manuscript critiquing service before I retired, and it was my business to know where and why a publisher would say no. You make the mistake of thinking that because I didn't like a given writer's style I didn't recognize that it was professionally written.
    They disagree on if a given story is right for their house. That's a very different thing from declaring something poorly written. Only 3% of what's submitted is viewed as professionally written. That's the thing you should be looking at because you can't even get into the game till you become one of those three in a hundred. Forget my level of knowledge. If editors feel that only 3% are written professionally, you can be certain that the same ratio holds here. In fact it's worse because we have a high percentage of writers who aren't yet ready to try querying.

    Given that ninety-seven out of a hundred writers here haven't yet reached a pro level, it would seem the smart thing to do to find out what they don't yet know but should. And the way to find that out isn't by asking the ninety-seven percent what you're doing wrong.
     
  25. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    Opinions? No. One can be highly educated/experienced/successful in an area and still have totally skewed opinions - just look at economists.
     

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