Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Necronox
    Offline

    Necronox Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2015
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    83
    Location:
    Victoria, Australia

    TTIP, TPP and TISA. "The Three Big 'T'"

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Necronox, Jun 16, 2016.

    So, this is fairly old news considering. But wikileaks has a large amount of files these three since may. But before we get into, a brief overview.

    TTIP (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) is a treaty currently being signed by, primarily speaking, the EU and the USA. The TPP, or Trans-Pacific Partnership is a deal being signed between the USA and Australia and a bunch of other countries in the Pacific-Asia-Oceania region. The TISA (Trade In Service Agreement) is another treaty signed primarily by signatories of the two aforementioned treaties.

    For more information; here is a few links:
    Wikileaks:
    TTIP
    TPP
    TISA

    Wikipedia:
    TTIP
    TPP
    TISA

    Now. From my personal perusing of the the documents, they is a few things that seem a bit weird. Firstly, the fact that both the TTIP and the TPP are being negotiated in secrecy. Secondly the fact that these treaty affect mose of the world's GDP and also has some interesting claws in each of them (such as the intellectual property). Also, New Zealand, Australia and Japan are three countries which have held protests for the TPP.

    I do recommend reading those for yourself. But as a whole, I was wondering what people thoughts are about this and why it is being introduced and if it should be introduced as a whole. The reason why I am personally asking this is there seems to be a fairly large negative view on these treaties, and yet, I do not have a proper reason as to why they are implimenting them in the first place. Though a few theories come to mind: 1) the more 'conspiracy theorist' one of the two, government are being controlled by companies/corporations that are now using this power to further their own agenda. 2) this is an economic attempt to block out unfavorable countries to the USA like Russia. Effectively doing so by creative a 'bloc' against such countries.

    Personally a favor the latter, simply because it implies the government is not being controlled by companies, and I'd hate for those conspiracies to be right. But on the other hand, when you view at some of the articles and definitions within those which support this, it definitely makes you beg the question.

    So personally and from what I have read, I am against this, but what are thoughts?

    ETA: It also raises another question: Is there influence from the corporations and have far does it go?
     
  2. Tenderiser
    Offline

    Tenderiser Not a man Contest Administrator Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2015
    Messages:
    4,281
    Likes Received:
    5,149
    Location:
    London, UK
    Another Angry Voice sums it up well for me (and doesn't mind his work being shared). This is written from a UK perspective because he's English.

    ...Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) negotiations underway in the EU, which are designed to carve open European markets (including the UK) for the benefit of gigantic US conglomerates, to bypass the UK courts and to undermine British democracy.

    Investor State Dispute Settlements

    The most concerning aspect of this so called "trade deal" is the inclusion of Investor State Dispute Settlements (ISDS). These new rules would allow corporations to completely bypass the UK legal system and sue the UK government in secretive tribunals.

    I don't think it's a radical view to say that if corporations want to do business in the UK, they should abide by the same legal system as the public. They shouldn't just be able to run off to a secretive transnational tribunal to sue our government every time the government does something that the corporations don't like.

    Here are a few brief examples of how corporations could use ISDS proceedings to bypass the British legal system and undermine our democracy.



    • UK Standards: ISDS tribunals could be used to prevent the UK government from bringing in new standards. If the UK government introduced new safety standards on any kind of product, the product manufacturers could launch ISDS proceedings in order to sue the UK government for their lost profits.

    • Public health: The Tobacco company Philip Morris has already used ISDS regulations in other free-trade agreements to sue countries (including Uruguay and Australia) for attempting to introduce plain cigarette packaging. TTIP would allow multinational corporations to undermine all kinds of legislation designed to promote public health.

    • Environmental issues: Corporations have been using the ISDS components of existing free-trade agreements in order to sue governments and attempt to undermine environmental legislation all over the world (Canada, Peru, El Salvador, Australia, Ecuador). If any future UK government were to introduce new environmental legislation to protect our natural environment, or reduce pollution in our cities, the ISDS components of TTIP could make them liable to pay compensation to the companies they prevent from damaging the environment.

    • Tax: Another important area in which ISDS proceedings could be used to undermine national sovereignty is the tax system. If any future UK government were to introduce new taxes (pollution tax, financial transaction taxes, Pigouvian taxes, wealth taxes) they would be opening themselves up to be sued by all manner of corporations.

    Mode 4 cross-border trade (immigration)


    The EU has a policy of including Mode 4 concessions in all of it's trade negotiations. This allows companies to transfer workers across borders. To simplify somewhat - Mode 4 cross-border trade is similar to outsourcing, but instead of moving the factory to a low-wage economy, workers are moved from the low-wage economy to the factory. Anyone with a job should be worried at the prospect of multinational companies driving down the aggregate value of labour in the UK by shipping in workers from low-wage economies.

    This article gives a much more comprehensive description of what Mode 4 cross border trade is all about.

    One would have thought, given their near constant use of anti-immigration rhetoric, the proposal to allow businesses to import foreign labour into the UK would have UKIP up in arms. Given that they now have 24 MEPs in Europe, surely one of them must have realised by now that ratification of TTIP could remove their power to "close the borders" should they ever actually get into power?
     
    Cave Troll likes this.
  3. Cave Troll
    Online

    Cave Troll Bite the bullet, do your own thing. Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2015
    Messages:
    3,762
    Likes Received:
    2,394
    Location:
    Where cushions are comfy, and straps hold firm.
    I think all of these "deals" are horse shit. First of all they reek to high hell of Corporate Cabal, and gives these giant Corporations more authority than the officials that govern in the countries involved. It is just going to prove one thing, that the ruling class of the globe are the super rich assholes that only care about the amount of wealth and power attained, even if it tramples on everything and everyone else in the process. All this does is make it easier for these entities have more special privilege, and less accountability for their actions as well as having their pockets filled by the tax payer in "bad quarters".

    I say to hell with that, all these crappy deals and the entities involved should be burned in the square for their filthy greed and trampling on the common man for their own selfish and broad sweeping expanse of power. Kill em all, and show these jerks what we think of their 'above the law' mentality.
     
    Necronox and Raven484 like this.
  4. Raven484
    Offline

    Raven484 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2016
    Messages:
    533
    Likes Received:
    263
    Location:
    Philadelphia
    Should also tell you a lot about Obama and how he is owned by these corporations. Bill Clinton was a better liar than him, he would smile and tell Americans that they will not lose their jobs. Obama is not even trying to tell the people anything, that's why it is all this is in secret. Before the election, Obama wants it all set up, they should throw them in the trash after the election.
     
    Cave Troll likes this.
  5. Necronox
    Offline

    Necronox Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2015
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    83
    Location:
    Victoria, Australia
    Very extremist views there, but I do solemnly agree, the more I read/know about them, the less I like them. But the question is, how can the common folk of such countries involved actually do anything to possible overrule/remove these deals? If there is anything, i'd quite like to know.

    On a different note, while some of the aspects seem nice, at first, the entire thing is, for the most part, 'bad' to your everyday citizen. But that said, is there anything redeemable in these except the occasional point that may be good?
     
  6. Cave Troll
    Online

    Cave Troll Bite the bullet, do your own thing. Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2015
    Messages:
    3,762
    Likes Received:
    2,394
    Location:
    Where cushions are comfy, and straps hold firm.
    @Necronox Not as extreme is having them flayed a square centimeter at a time over an extended length of time, and then hanging them like game animals by their ankles. Though that might just have an effect and show we won't take their selfish endeavors with out consequence. Almost seems appropriate considering major corporations use slave labor, and then make massive profits on barely par products. When you move your manufacturing out of country, you hurt the local populace and pollute the countries that have the factories. So who wins, other than the big CEO's at the top? They own politicians all over the globe, so they will have little to no resistance in having their deals enacted for them. Then we will watch the world burn slowly, all for the sake of a few individuals that want it all for themselves. How long before the masses return the favor and toss the self appointed kings from their towers?

    Welcome to the Slave New World policy pending implementation. There is no redeeming for the atrocities that will inevitably follow when/if these trade deals are implemented. We think that conditions in sweatshops are bad now, things will get tenfold worse, as well as collapse the economy on a global scale that will make the 2008 collapse look like a joke.
     
  7. Tenderiser
    Offline

    Tenderiser Not a man Contest Administrator Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2015
    Messages:
    4,281
    Likes Received:
    5,149
    Location:
    London, UK
    All you can do is vote for MPs and parties who oppose these deals, and lobby your MP (or the equivalent in non-UK countries!) to oppose them in parliament.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page