Two Romance Readers and One Sci-Fi Nerd read Dune

Discussion in 'Romance' started by VynniL, Mar 13, 2016.

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  1. KokoN

    KokoN Active Member

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    In regards to what I normally read: I haven't read much lately because from my experience being in college with all the textbooks and required reading has diminished my love of reading (but I'm really trying to get that back). In the past, my number one reading was mystery novels, primarily Agatha Christie but I also read some of the "cozy mystery" genre as well (some of those genre are great and hilarious, some are unspeakably dull). I also loved reading the classics, such as Shakespeare, a lot of stuff we were all forced to read in high school (favorites being Great Expectations, To Kill a Mockingbird, Lord of the Flies, and more), and some random ones like War and Peace which I read voluntarily for some unknown reason (and did enjoy it actually). I don't really have a preferred genre, but I like stories with a lot of character development, and I definitely don't mind twist or surprise endings.

    That pretty much sums me up as a reader. :)
     
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  2. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    My normal is Science Fiction. Like @Commandante Lemming, I much prefer Social Science Fiction rather than the kind of Sci-Fi that I refer to as Tech-Porn. I don't see any value in reading a story that's just about technology and people dealing with it. Science Fiction - for me - should be about the human condition, just like any other literature, and the science part is just there to serve as a particular kind of lens to focus on aspects of the human condition. DUNE is pretty much the benchmark piece for Social Science Fiction, though Azimov's Foundation series ranks very close. I just never got into Azimov's work. Samuel R. Delany is also very in the vein of S.S.F. Stars in my Pocket Like Grains of Sand is rather bereft of any actual technology, relatively speaking, but the man had a great deal to say concerning gender, sexuality, and the not-often-touched-upon topic of Humanity, evolved as a pack animal, now living as a hive or heard animal because of our numbers, and what this means.
     
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  3. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Also, unsolicited, gratuitous DUNE-porn (no spoilers) :-D

     
  4. Commandante Lemming

    Commandante Lemming Contributor Contributor

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    So - I guess I need a more formal self-profile now? :p

    So, as a reader and a writer, I'm in the Sci-Fi world. I like social and poltical themes - particularly can't stand post-apocalyptic scenarios because I like the social order and watching people manipulate it. Alternate History premises also have a big allure for me although I haven't read a lot. I'm also very, very big into political spy thriller type premises. My TV viewing is not really SciFi at all other than Star Trek - my shows are stuff like Quantico, The Blacklist, House of Cards. I'm really, really big into the Man in the High Castle, which is an technically SciFi but is more based in an AltHistory premise (it takes place in the 1960s in a world where the Nazis won the war). I'm also a Game of Thrones watcher, which is really the only fanstasy I engage with, and I watch it only because of the political intrigue.

    So, yeah - that's me - politics and SciFi. Which probably explains why I'm writing what is essentially and Aaron Sorkin political drama in the future.
     
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  5. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    All right, I got to the second epigraph today.

    This is where I stopped: (2nd epigraph)
    "To attempt an understanding of Maud'Dib without understanding his mortal enemies, the Harkonens, is to attempt to see Truth without knowing Falsehood. It is the attempt to see th Light without knowing Darkness. It cannot be."

    So, my thoughts on this - because my baby and husband are both asleep so now is as good a time as any... Spoiler tagged :p

    The book opens with an epigraph, which I was immediately inclined to skip because of the deliberately formal/archaic way it was written. I've never been a huge fan of these things, especially when it looks long. However, I confess that the opening would have been far more interesting had I not skipped the epigraph to begin with :bigoops: My bad.

    First of all, this reminded me of why I avoid even fantasy novels - and bear in mind I actually write fantasy myself - and it is because of all those blasted names! They just get dropped in like I should know what it's about, and the sheer amount of them was very off-putting because I don't remember all those names. I can't even name them now. Gene Besserit and Arrakis are the only two names I actually remember - and frankly, it seems the only two names I needed to remember for this scene (that, and the Kwistzahzzyat-Hadarech-bleh :blech: And Maud'Dib)

    There were many more names, none of which gets mentioned again for the duration of this scene. It's boring, off-putting, I don't remember them, and now I know I shall be confused later in the book because I would have been expected to remember them - but I honestly don't. It feels to me like a classic case of the author not understanding just how much his story is of no significance to me as a reader until I have invested a certain amount of time and energy into it - like the bad teacher who doesn't know when to stop using jargon and leaving their students all misty-eyed and their heads a ball of tangled cotton wool.

    So far not a lot has happened - Paul is 15 and about to head off to Arrakis, the desert planet also known as Dune. He is someone special, implied to be the Maud'Dib from what the first epigraph read. We don't know what a Maud'Dib is yet, but that is a mystery I am content to live with for now as I'm sure it will be revealed in due time. The witch woman comes to test Paul by forcing him to put his hand into a bag, where he feels much pain - the test is to see if he was truly human according to the views of the Gene Besserit, because an animal moves by instinct, but a human is able to surpass any such impulses. The witch woman called it the human nerves.

    Paul passes the test and his mother Jessica is relieved. Paul realises from how his mother's behaving that this witch woman is someone powerful and important, and that through her he might be able to gain insight/wisdom into things greater than himself. So they start talking, and in this dialogue it is revealed that Paul has the rare gift of being able to sense Truth - eg. he can tell when someone is telling the truth, at least truth as far as the teller believes it. What is unknown to the characters, but clear to the reader, is that Paul also senses moral correctness or moral incorrectness - a "rightness" as the book puts it. This probably foreshadows him as a righteous character who will seek not just truth, but rightness.

    I must say, I'm not impressed by the writing. I'm not sure if it's Herbert's writing style, or if it is a trait common in the Sci-Fi genre because the same thing was in the Three-Body Problem that eventually put me off reading it, but the writing is very, very mechanical. Granted less mechanical than Three-Body Problem, but mechanical nonetheless. Herbert seems unable to delve deeply, truly, into the character emotions, or really to create much atmosphere or tension in the scene. Everything was told, little was shown. I was told there is Pain! Pain! Then it was gone! (oh the exclamation marks - it doesn't add tension, but that is what Herbert hoped it would add I think) I was told "He senses Truth!" I was told he senses the lack of rightness.

    Like here:
    "The old woman's words abruptly lost their special sharpness for Paul. He felt an offense against what his mother called his instinct for rightness."

    Or here:
    "They spoke truth. His mother had undergone this test. There must be terrible purpose in it... the pain and fear had been terrible. He understood terrible purposes..... He did not know yet what the terrible purpose was."

    I mean, be honest now, if this excerpt had been in the workshop, it'd get torn to absolute shreds. It's awkward, stilted, repetitive for unremarkable reasons (there must be better ways to emphasise how terrible it was rather than just keep saying "terrible"?) If you didn't know this was something taken straight out of Dune, it'd get trashed like there's no tomorrow.

    I am simply told things I am supposed to find extraordinary, like "He senses Truth!" - All right, so? Most of us have the ability to sense whether someone's lying or not. I understand in this context it probably means he senses what is absolute Truth, as opposed to whether someone's lying, but without any establishment of the character's abilities, the world, without knowing what I should expect of this world and its people yet, these "OMG" moments are just... meh. Like, so...?

    I am simply expected to accept the world and everything in it instantly, without anything to warm me up to it and familiarise me with it. I am simply expected to be surprised by the same things the characters are surprised by, fear the same things, agree with the same things. Well, I don't.

    I'm not sure how much of my feelings against his writing style is relevant to the review, but I cannot separate my reading experience from the quality of his writing, unfortunately. And the quality of his writing is... meh. Is it because Sci-Fi talks more about technical stuff that when it comes to discussing emotions, it sounds this terribly, terribly stilted?

    I'm a reader - and writer - driven very largely by emotions. I pride myself in conveying emotions in my writing. This is going to be a very significant lack for me from Dune if this style continues :bigfrown:

    ETA: I just realised now it's Bene Gesserit hehehe :whistle::crazy:
     
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  6. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Oh yeah I forgot to mention the feminine and masculine truths. Sexist somewhat?! As a modern audience, not impressed. :bigmad:

    Where in the text did you get that girls are stronger than boys usually? I only got that Paul is stronger than girls and so assumed boys are routinely stronger!
     
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  7. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    By the way, this must be what a book club feels like :geek: It's fun!! :-D:coffee:
     
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  8. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    It's mentioned that boys are rarely even given the test, and we know that Jessica took the test and passed. I know it's only an implication at this point that Bene Gesserit acolytes all take the test, which I know you don't dig too much, but I immediately took from it upon first read (and it does bear out as you get into the rest of the book and series) that boys aren't really considered worthy of even taking the test. It's also mentioned at the end of this chapter that the truthsayer drug has never been survived by any man, only by woman. Hence, my read that Herbert is telling me that girls are stronger than boys, in this context, and that Paul is the exception.
     
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  9. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    I glossed over all the gender switches, but you're right it's implied there. But again as you said, kinda ruined it with the whole, "We're all just waiting for the magic MAN to come and do what all us impressive powerful females can't."
     
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  10. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    @Mckk

    I'm reading this thread with interest (I like Dune, personally). I agree with your post about excerpts from Dune being torn apart on writing forums, however to my mind that's a problem with writing forums, not a problem with Dune. If you've got an award-winning novel that is probably one of the best-selling SF novels of all times, and has spawned movies, TV series, and games, and is still widely read 50 years after publication, clearly Herbert found a big audience. But things on writing forums become dogmatic - you have to do x and you can't do y. So, yeah, it would probably be torn apart on a writing forum because people on writer's forums are often inflexible and take a limited view of how fiction can be approached.

    Which is all different from having a personal dislike of one approach or another. We all have that. Being able to distinguish between personal dislike and doing something wrong is the key.

    You'd probably really hate Erikson's Malazan books. They're great fun (and he does show a lot, in addition to telling) but he tosses you right into the world and never explains much of anything. You're left to figure things out, and it's fairly complex :)

    Getting back to Dune, I think the style is in part a product of the era. It certainly isn't the norm in modern SF/F, though there are some writers who still approach their works in that way. I found Herbert's approach to be sufficient to hold my interest, back when I read Dune. But then again, I read a lot of older works and I'm quite used to that style of writing, as opposed to modern writing. If you look at a lot of classics, many of which are excellent, there is a lot of straightforward telling involved.
     
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  11. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Yeah...it was written in the 60s, so some of that comes into it. I think in the lore of the world it is important, because the Bene Gesserit have access to genetic memory, but only through the female side of the species. The idea is that a male Bene Gesserit would have access to the female side through the usual Bene Gesserit techniques, but would also be able to access the male side by virtue of being a male, and thus would have knowledge and/or power that is precluded from the females. Of course, one can ask why Herbert wrote his lore that way.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
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  12. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Well, I dunno - story and writing are two different things. Dune might be a good story, but that doesn't make the writing good. It's adequate, I suppose. And oh no, I'm not into writing formula and saying you have to do x and you can't do y and never do this that or the other. Not at all! But you gotta admit, the writing in Dune is sorely lacking any depth of emotion... :bigconfused:

    But you're right, you're right. There's probably good reason why Dune's as big as it is. I'll keep reading - perhaps I will change my mind and the story will be so riveting I'll forget about the writing entirely :agreed:

    But hey, I never even got through The Hobbit because I found that long-winded and, yes, boring!! :ohno: and I actually enjoyed the charm in the writing there and have no criticism for it (only read the first 3 pages after all) My dad to this day is still the only one in my family who's read through the entirety of LOTR - and he's the accountant in the family! :wtf:
     
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  13. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    What, like the XX and XY chromosomes, basically?

    Meh. I guess it's something I can forgive. I forgive enough sexism in anime and manga after all - I can show Dune the same courtesy!
     
  14. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    It has been a while since I read it, and I can't recall whether emotion was lacking or not, however given when it was written this doesn't surprise me. But, one of my favorite authors is Joseph Conrad, and he's doesn't exactly draw readers into emotional highs and lows with his emotion. I'm fine with that as long as the author's style doesn't bore me (like Herbert's seems to do with you).
     
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  15. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Yeah, basically. Since females only have XX, then the techniques that allow them to access genetic memories won't be available for whatever is on the Y chromosome, whereas a male who can survive the Bene Gesserit training etc. would have access to both X and Y.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
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  16. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Just a reminder, and I'm pretty sure I'm the one guilty of kicking it off, so appy-poly-loggies all around, but we're getting ahead of the thread's intent. The OP and other readers are new to the book and the story-line.
     
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  17. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Good point. I got a bit carried away :/ I'll add spoiler tags above.
     
  18. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    It doesn't bore me just yet - I usually last about 30% into the book before I decide, "Enough is enough!" If the story intrigues, then maybe 50%, but I rarely go through with a book I find dull. Exactly why I was hesitant to commit to this venture!!!

    But I shall try and endure :D
     
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  19. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    @Wreybies @Steerpike it's gonna be like a secret club! Like we're whispering about the book in class when the teacher's talking hehehehe
     
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  20. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    @Wreybies that vid was intensely....weird and un-porny!
    I think you've enhanced my reading experience but not necessarily in a good way. :D

    Also, I was going to respond to the above reader profiles (@KokoN @Wreybies @Commandante Lemming) - I already knew the last two were nerds but its nice to have an intro piece. I'll get around to putting one up for myself. Gotta go to work!

    @Mckk - agree, this feels like an online book club and it's fun getting a broader perspective on the genre. One thing I am learning is there is a lot of Sci-Fi nerds about. But if we can pretend it is secret, even better. I've always wanted to be in a secret society. We'll just ignore the fact that everything we say is public to the whole wide web!!!!

    And everyone, I don't want to feel like I've put a gag order on those of you that are enthused about the book. It's nice to see people interested in a classic, myself included. I'm not sure where @Commandante Lemming is with his progress (have you even started yet?) or @doggiedude.

    If it is just me holding up the party then go ahead without me and I will catch up on Friday/Sat. There's obviously people bursting to talk about the book!

    We can try to be more on schedule next week. I don't want this thread to be littered to "spoilers", just show them all and I will read squinting when skimming pass them if I don't want to know.
     
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  21. Commandante Lemming

    Commandante Lemming Contributor Contributor

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    I've started but barely :p
     
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  22. doggiedude

    doggiedude Contributor Contributor

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    I've already listened further than I needed to. I was going to go back through it later in the week & then write up something.
     
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  23. Feo Takahari

    Feo Takahari Senior Member

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    I'm reminded of all the complaints I saw about how the beginning of Final Fantasy XIII is "confusing." It seemed simple enough to me--people are turning into monsters, soldiers want to kill everyone in the vicinity who might become monsters, and the local militia are fighting the soldiers to protect their friends and families. But it doesn't call them by those terms; it says things like fal'cie and l'cie and NORA and Guardian Corps. Many players were left baffled because they couldn't keep track of all the names and relate them to what was going on.

    All things considered, I think that was as much the fault of the writers as the players. If it's not that hard to explain, don't overcomplicate it by throwing out too much too fast.
     
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  24. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Depends. A big part of the fun of Malazan is being comoletely lost and piecing things together on your own.
     
  25. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    But that's what would make it funny :p the whole thread, every post, all tagged with spoilers :supergrin:

    I seem to be in a trolling mood... I saw a thread entitled "How does this look?" just a few minutes ago and I instantly wanted to reply with, "Bad." :supergrin:

    But since I'm a mod, I was good. I behaved. See, hidden advantages of making people mods! You eliminate future trolls :supertongue:

    I think it's because I just watched a hilarious video on FB... hehehehe
     
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