Two Romance Readers and One Sci-Fi Nerd read Dune

Discussion in 'Romance' started by VynniL, Mar 13, 2016.

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  1. KokoN

    KokoN Active Member

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    Lol looks like there are mixed feelings about this book so far. I finally got my copy so I can start reading! First two epigraphs right now, right?
     
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  2. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Yes! Read! Read like it is your first time with the Maker hooks in Shai Hulud's back and the dry winds of Arrakis blow through your hair!

    May his passing cleans the way.
     
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  3. Commandante Lemming

    Commandante Lemming Contributor Contributor

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    You need to see Blazing Saddles! Most blistering critique if racism ever, while also being hilarious.
     
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  4. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Tempt me. Got a trailer? :D
     
  5. Commandante Lemming

    Commandante Lemming Contributor Contributor

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  6. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    In the text following the second epigraph, Herbert sets up some of the larger-scale structures of the DUNEiverse. Here we meet the Harkonnen family headed by the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen. We also meet Fayde Rautha, The Beast Rabban, and Piter de Vries. We are also introduced to the concept of the Landsraad who represent the peerage. Assuming Herbert follows standard peerage structure, Duke Leto ranks at the very top of the pecking order and it is made known that the Duke's popularity in the Landsraad is a matter of concern for the Padasha Emperor, which makes sense. Typically, ducal positions are reserved for members of the royal family and close kin. A popular Duke would be of logical concern for the current Prince since he would make an acceptable replacement if the metaphorical shit were to hit the proverbial fan.

    We learn that control and management of Arrakis has been in the hands of the Harkonnens and is being passed to the Atriedes family. This is a blow to the former and a boon to the latter. It's not been completely spelled out yet, but we are already given good cause to believe that the Spice is an important commodity. The whole little spiel between the Baron and Piter, directed at Fayde, is also Herbert's intro to one of the major themes of the book and series: resource allocation. The haves, the have-nots, and those in control of who is which. It's a theme Herbert spoke and lectured on and is also present in another series of books he wrote collectively known as the WorShip novels.
     
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  7. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    Hello Everyone!

    My report on Epigraph 1 & 2 finally…

    I’ll go back and read all previous comments at a later point because my head is overloaded from Dune at the moment from my own reading but below are my thoughts:

    Third Person Omnipresent: I googled “Third Person Omnipresent” to remind myself as typically it's Third Person or First Person in romances. In reading Dune, I immediately noticed how much faster the pace it was with this style. Had to keep following the spotlight flicking about like a disco ball. I don't dislike it, but it was less cruisy reading trying to keep up in a room with three people. Also, in hearing three people's thoughts, it gave me the sense that I (the reader) was the only person excluded from knowing what hell was happening with Dune being as confusing as it was at times...

    Linny was distracted by the use of colon, especially before quotation, said: "Is it just me but I don't see it used today?"

    The flow of reading was very different because of this punctuation style.

    Three quick breaths triggered the responses: he fell into the floating awareness . . . focusing the consciousness . . .aortal dilation . . . avoiding the unfocused mechanism of consciousness . . . to be conscious by choice . . . blood enriched and swift-flooding the overload regions . . . one does not obtain food-safety-freedom by instinct alone . . .animal consciousness does not extend beyond the given moment nor into the idea that its victims may become extinct . . . the animal destroys and does not produce . . . animal pleasures remain close to sensation levels and avoid the perceptual . . . the human requires a background grid through which to see his universe . . . focused consciousness by choice, this forms your grid . . .bodily integrity follows nerve-blood flow according to the deepest awareness of cell needs . . . all things/cells/beings are impermanent . . . strive for flowpermanence within . . .

    HUH?! Really? For a moment there I thought some amateur writer wrote the above. I found the whole passage clumsy and unreadable. It did make me take three quick breaths to try and get in character, but that just made me think it hardly deserved that kind of bodily reaction...

    But I also start noticing that sometimes Herbert waffled with overly detailed descriptions. For example, his description of the globe at the start of epigraph 2. It's a fancy globe....okay, I get it!

    Caricatures of the Villains - effeminate, fat and sullen?!

    It was so blatant, it was funny. We switch over to the baddies in epigraph 2 and immediately we get effeminate, fat and sullen. Even the dialogue and the rhythm of speech was comical. I liked how Piter told us the evil plans in great detail. I'm imagining something out of Austen powers level of silly and I'm surprised he didn't throw in an evil "muahahaha" laugh. So from my reading, what I am getting is that there is homosexual Baron who likes young boys, the sadist human computer who talks too much, and the sullen power hungry heir who is waiting to usurp his Uncle.

    I also thought it hilarious when the Baron points out the problems of a human computer.

    "This is a Mentat, Feyd. It has been trained and conditioned to perform certain duties. The fact that it's encased in a human body, however, must not be overlooked. serious drawback, that. I sometimes think the ancients with their thinking machines had the right idea."

    I like the idea of these human computers that replaced the outlawed machines were faultier and corruptible. So I am understanding that every house needs a Mentat. I mean, they all have to have a computer even if it is annoying, has addiction issues, talks back too much and likes to remind you he knows you plan to put him out of commission!

    But back to the Baron, he not only had to be grotesquely obese, but I can only assume that it's a 60s thing that he had to be gay too. But despite Herbert seeming wordy sometimes, I enjoy his writing. He paints a vivid picture, like how he ended epigraph 2.

    "He might weigh two hundred Standard kilos in actuality, but his feet would carry no more than fifty of them."

    Right-o, got it. :)

    Duno lingo ... it's everywhere...read...stop...wiki...read...stop...wiki...

    Not surprised this novel is littered with world specific terminology right from the get go. It did break the reading experience but checking wiki is now part of the reading experience, especially since I keep forgetting the meanings! I guess Sci-Fi requires a much more work to read but it is rewarding nonetheless. There were some key words that even after reading their definition, I don't feel I have a full grasp of their meaning in the context of the story. They were: Kwisatz_Haderach, Muad'Dib


    Women excel as manipulators and breeders.

    Hmmm. I am still mulling over the role of gender and then going back to the 60s way of thinking. I did notice that the Bene Gressit were a female organisation of political 'manipulators' focused on 'breeding' for thousands of years, because they are nurturing the continued health of human-kind. These powerful women are strategically placed to seduce, guide and influence the men in decision making. I'm lead to think this book is positioning women in the role of being rather evil justified for the greater good. I also vaguely caught somewhere the Lady Jessica might be modeled after Herbert's wife, so I wonder how much that also influenced his writing.

    Also, I am still getting my head around the Humans vs Animals the the Bene Gressit are so snooty about. I am assuming the Humans are intelligent beings that can control their impulses unlike the ordinary humans who are driven by urges. Will hopefully become clearer to me as the book goes along.

    Arabic and Islamic influences

    But finally, the thing that most intrigue me in Dune so far was triggered by the word "Jihad". I am not politically or religiously geared at all. But in the passing, I am always interested in the Islamic culture. That might be due to the fact I have a close Palestinian friend. But it had me curious and I was back to my incessant googling and was surprised to discover that Dune is an analogy of the dependence of the West on oil, where Melange spice is the oil, Arrakis is comparable to Iraq and the fremen the Bedouins. And all those strange names, a lot of them can be linked back to an Islamic or Arabic influence. So it did not only put a whole new layer of meaning and intrigue for me but I learnt that Sci-Fi does have a lot of Islamic influences. Anyway, this is all fascinating stuff to me and for the time being, I am very much enjoying the book. Other than some of the social ideas around homosexuality and women that I feel is from the time when the book was written, it does not feel dated to me at all.

    Anyway, sorry about the wall of text, but hopefully somebody got to the end of it! :D
     
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  8. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    @KokoN if you can quickly read the first two epigraphs and post something even if it is brief then you would have caught right up. I haven't even read the past comments yet myself and will be catching up over the course of the next couple of days and seeing how that compares with my thoughts.

    I think we might have to add at least an extra epigrapaphs or two for next week's read to keep pace with @Mckk but I haven't caught up with reading posts yet on opinion with that. Will do so once I decompress from my own post above!
     
  9. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    @Wreybies - your reviews help me keep up with all the details of the novel hehe. I definitely did not get all that info from the book!!

    @LinnyV - how interesting you find his descriptions excessive! Because for me, there feels like there's hardly any at all. And the fancy globe - c'mon, it was gorgeously written. I actually started out thinking it was metaphorical. What little description Herbert had was always done very well, I thought.

    Anyway all this might be why I have been losing interest in YA. Writing in YA is so painfully bland!! :blech:

    Anyway yes, I think we must add a couple of epigraphs. Each interval is very short. I read everything between the 3rd and 4th ep. within 15min on the tram :confuzled:

    And yeah I will be typing that up on Word I guess :coffee:
     
  10. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    @Mckk - my sincerest apologies!!!

    One of my previous messages about holding off posting further reports was of the belief that you posted section 3 because I read that you had epigraph 3 at the top. I just realized right now that it was actually epigraph 2/ Chapter 2! I was scratching my head for a moment thinking, hey, that sounds like chapter 2?!

    To everyone.... When I say epigraph, I mean CHAPTER so:

    Epigraph 1 = Chapter 1
    Epigraph 2 = Chapter 2


    Looks like Mckk and myself might be using them as markers differently. She uses them to mark her end points.

    Also suggest if people who are interested and might have missed it, make sure to go back to @Wreybies, @Mckk @doggiedude's original reports (some very far back). Very fun reads for me. :D

    Off topic and more to do with the turning us into some sort of hive mind for reading, maybe we can do Epigraph 3, 4, 5 & 6 next week. Or is that too much or do we want more?

    I'm thinking with Dune being as multi-layered as it is, we'll be here for months analysing every little detail if we only did 2 epigraphs. Thoughts people?

    * back to reading previous posts to catch up *
     
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  11. doggiedude

    doggiedude Contributor Contributor

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    3-6 is fine by me
    I think some of you are getting more info from the Dune Wiki than the actual book.
     
  12. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Yeah.... :bigfrown: This part was a little heartbreaking for me as a gay kid. As an adult I understand ideas like temporal context and I can forgive him this easy abuse of an easily abused section of the population, but as a kid... it hurt. Not just requisitely gay for being the baddy, but there is a strong implication that he's a pedo as well. Yet another stereotype that still clings to modern times and is a very unpleasant thing to deal with as a gay guy.
     
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  13. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Sadly, when I first read Dune at about 13 I didn't think anything of this. Later, when I re-read it, I found it troubling. You mentioned the WorShip novels....I have The Jesus Incident in my to-read pile. I didn't realize until now that it's the second book in the series. I thought it was a stand-alone novel.
     
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  14. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    The Jesus Incident, The Lazarus Effect and The Ascension Factor are usually treated as a trilogy unto themselves, but the universe of that story-line is presented in Destination: Void. The timeline between the first and second novel is huge, so it's not like you can't start with The Lazarus Effect.
     
  15. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Also, @Steerpike, once you do get to that book, and to make it a little easier for you to break the habit in case it has already set in, it's not Jesus as in Jesus Christ, but Jesus as in Jesus Perez Hernandez. :whistle: :-D
     
  16. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Ah! I assumed, it was a Christian reference. And knowing another one is entitled The Lazarus Effect, I suppose it's safe to safe that there is Christian allusion at work, or is that simply limited to the titles?
     
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  17. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    The word play is very purposeful, yes. Herbert wrote these novels contemporaneously with the DUNE series, and you can see the huge role that religion-as-a-tool plays in the universe of Muad'dib. The two series are like siblings, in a way. There are unmistakable similarities and family resemblance, but they are not twins. Just sisters, if you'll forgive the extended metaphor. :)
     
  18. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    Okay, I have also finally caught up on all the reports from everyone EXCEPT @Commandante Lemming which will happen Monday.

    One thing I've noticed is that I might be reading this differently to others who are letting the story reveal things to them as they go along. I have found the main enjoyment for me in reading Dune is that every time I pick it up, I find myself curious about one thing or another. I keep getting distracted going off researching to clarify ideas or concepts. As a result, I've ended up reading about fiefdom, Islamic ideas, a bit of history on Sci-Fi, and constant back and forth with the Dune wiki. This makes it a richer experience for me and not something I normally do when reading a Romance.

    After reading everyone's feedback, I have to agree I had similar in-scene confusion and just a bit of frustration - at least for epigraph 1. Like @Mckk, I enjoyed epigraph 2 so much more. It was a hilarious 'infodump' because of the warped power dynamic between the Baron and Piter.

    I was also the same, truth? What bloody truth? Oh, he can sense if people are lying... *snort* Even his whole ability to dream things that happened in the future (or was it the past?) was all a little confusing. And yes, the "terrible purpose" was kind of repetitive and Herbert's way of saying Paul's fated to do something awful and he knows it too... But I just can't fault it too much because I just read over that stuff. It's as if Frank is trying to say stick with me, stuff is coming up, stuff is coming up!

    And @Wreybies, I loved how you took us back in time to when you were a kid reading this book for the first time and your reaction to girls being stronger. hehe. Also, I was indeed curious about your reaction to the Baron being a gay villain. As soon as I read effeminate, I was thinking "oh, here we go..." and that was sealed by the pedophilic reference, "sweet young body". Just read your post above, so adding: I am so sorry it hurt you! :bigfrown: However, thank you for sharing.

    But in contrast to @Mckk who felt the story was lacking in detail or emotion, I felt I got the detail and emotion when it was needed and then some that I didn't care for. I went back to check, it wasn't just the globe, it was setting up the room in that scene that triggered my auto-skim glasses! I get a little impatient when authors describe inanimate objects and furniture in elaborate detail if I didn't feel it was necessary. Maybe the "ellipsoid desk with a top of jade-pink petrified elacca wood" was not to my interior design taste? :bigmeh:

    Also, going back to @Mckk 's comment about pain being described as "Pain!" I would have said it was more than that. It seemed quite descriptive to me and I certainly felt a little charred...I mean "flesh crisping and dropping away until only charred bones remained" more than adequately covered the feeling...*shudder*

    It's one of the more memorable moments for me in epigraph 1, especially when Paul felt he was going to pull out a crispy stump instead of his uninjured hand.

    But even in epigraph 2 as noted by both myself and more hilariously by @doggiedude, it's quite a picture imagining the Baron.

    I quote @doggiedude: "Duke Harkonnen is fat. Really really fat. There’s some sort of suspension thing holding him up." lol

    So yep, I did think that Frank was quite a descriptive guy and for me, having read so little of Dune, he's already drawn me into this world filled mystery and tensions. It's all in the exchanges and thoughts all hinting at something greater. I've actually found that other than forgetting the meaning of words, I don't even mind the lingo anymore. It's all part of the ride you sign up for if you're going to take the Dune trip. It also makes sense now that you realize he draws a lot from the Arabic language. So while it may seem annoying, I would disagree that it has no purpose. Not only does it hint at cultural references but is part of developing the sense of culture in the Dune world. I feel like I'm on my way to becoming converted for defending it! :ohno:

    So referring back to @jannert 's earlier comment in this thread, I prefer to see this as not so much an exercise in reader confusion but more that I don't know all the WHYs just yet. But this is "voyage of discovery" and I still have wiki to keep me kinda in the know - even though the definitions themselves don't always make full sense to me!

    Yes, I am again sorry at my second wall of text! There's a lot of comments I felt I needed to address in this very long thread. :bigsmile:
     
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  19. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    Just to chime in shortly: I am too busy with writing to be able to get out long enough to read a book - any book and certainly not 'Dune' - but I wanted to let you guys know that I am enjoying very much your fencing around with words and critique. I read Dune when I was around 12-15 (don't remember now exactly), but certain passages stuck with me throughout the years. When I read what you are throwing at one another it all comes back now :D

    Thank you, keep it on. I will be a silent reader of my backbrain and your critique ;)
     
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  20. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Since the premiss of the thread is the idea that folks who would not normally pick up a Sc-Fi novel are going to read the Grand Daddy of all Sci-Fi Novels and discuss it, I think it's important to note the following:

    Frank's unfortunate handling of the matter as regards a gay character, though we can excuse it today because of when it was written, becomes a little harder to excuse when you know that Science Fiction and Fantasy have been, since the beginning, a friendly place for LGBTQ folk. I am more of the Science Fiction route, but I am sure that @Steerpike, who is more Fantasy, will chime in on the matter. A progressive take on issues of sexuality and gender have long been a quiet hallmark of both genres. Frank's take is actually a bit atypical. I think it may not be a well-known fact for those who aren't fans of either genre, at least in part, because up until recently both genres were regarded as juvenile in nature, so who expects these things to come up? From the "Bi is the new Str8" take of many of Arthur C. Clarke's novels to the more aggressively in-your-face presentation of homosexuality in Samuel R. Delany's work, to the scathing indictments of gender inequality and the very nature of gender in Ursula K. Le Guin's novels, to the more sensitive and soft-spoken indictments on all those issues in Marrion Zimmer Bradley's work. And all these writers and novels I mention are of the old-school. Everywhere across the landscape of space ships and alien planets, dragons and fantastic quests, LGBTQ folk have found a place where they can read stories about themselves that paint a more dignified and non-marginalizing view of their place in the world.

    Just putting that out there for balance. ;)
     
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  21. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    I am sorry but I can't agree with you @Wreybies . I have mentioned that I was not really mature when reading this novel but I can remember, vividly, this specific word choice. And that says something. I am NOT going to excuse anything which may devalue any human being. And this specific topic I absolutely find not-excusable. As much as I enjoyed the rest of the novel (as far as I remember), but when you remember, 25 years after, a specific word choice, that says something. Maybe I am too sensitive, but this is something I don't condone in any manner.

    *off rant* *start again with serious enjoyment*
     
  22. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    I think maybe you read the intent of my wording differently than I intended. I don't excuse the use of gayness as a default characteristic for the baddie, for obvious reasons. I am gay. I simply acknowledge that there is an opening to excuse because of the when of the writing of the story, which I caveat by mentioning that at least in the realms of Science Fiction and Fantasy, Frank's take is atypical for the time. Again, when I read that phrase as a 10 year-old, it was worse than heartbreaking. It was shaming. If I soft-shoed my take on the matter it's only because I don't want a very enjoyable thread to devolve into a pro-gay vs. anti-gay thread when this is just a small facet of an overall storyline.
     
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  23. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    I don't want that either. That's why the *off rant*
    Let's just stop talking ;)
     
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  24. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    @Wreybies I didn't detail too much in my original report because I was not gay and felt I would not properly put across the issue here. You have since done that, so thank you again.

    I hope I didn't offend anyone but it really was laughable because it didn't even try to be subtle about it. If I had to sum up my thoughts simply from what I got so far, it would be bad qualities = women, gays, fat people and teenagers with bad attitudes. All wrapped up in the best sci-fi book of all time.... So I had quite a "hmmmm" moment. Especially when you now consider what @Wreybies said that from it's moment of conception, Sci-Fi has always been very progressive and sensitive in its treatment of Homosexuality and gender equality.

    But to me that doesn't mean the book is bad, and I do excuse it for myself in that I see this as a bit of a historical record of views at the time of writing.

    @Lifeline, I am glad you're lurking about, it helps to get the views of readers that grew up with the genre. :)

    @doggiedude , I just remembered you were audio! Not sure how that works with the glossary that is part of the book. And yeah, I get curious while I read all the time, so if a word or suggestion catches my interest, I need to drill down - sorry!. To be fair, I don't think Dune Wiki is all that helpful! I'm still confused after reading the definitions, the Dune world is rather complicated.

    @Mckk @Commandante Lemming @Wreybies @KokoN
    I'm also happy with @doggiedude's suggestion of 3-6 more epigraphs.
    I just did a quick count of the number of epigraphs and I countered 41

    So I am happy to go with 6 epigraphs for next week if that is consensus.
     
  25. Commandante Lemming

    Commandante Lemming Contributor Contributor

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    So I've finished the first three epigrams in 50 minutes of listening time - so doing 4 at a go shouldn't be a problem.

    I've read a lot of the comments but probably will have more to say tomorrow when I have more computer time.

    That said, I do find this world interesting so far. Paul's experience with the Reverend Mother and the box was quite compelling, and I like the idea of the Bene Gesserit as ethical in their own minds but not entirely moral in their application of power (I'm writing a grad school admissions essay on foreign policy realism vs. idealism in another window, and the Reverend Mother would make the realists proud. The whole Gon-Jabbar thing was also cool, and Lady Jessica has a really interesting interpersonal conflict. I'm also interested to see how Paul's pride plays going forward.

    I can certainly concur with the flaws discussed about the Baron Harkonen's portrayal, but on his own merits he certainly is a compelling and competent villain. He's certainly someone I can love to hate - and while I can concur about the stereotyping regarding the LGBT community and pedophilia - the idea of the main villain being ridiculously obese pedophile (regardless of sexuality) is something that I think works to stomach-churning effect. Also, I found the Mentat Piter to be quite a fun addition to the scheming - I'm interested to learn more about Mentats in general and the role they play. And Harkonen's nephew is himself a compelling little schemer in the making,.

    Since this piece was mostly setup and worldbuilding, I'll stop there. So far I am enjoying this experience in terms of sinking into the world - and this is a level up from some of the worldbuilding I've seen in the past (as someone not inclined to read epics). Herbert definitely is taking a slower pace and letting me bask in what I'm looking at.

    On the Islamic influence - I do find that to be a fun aside in the worldbuilding. It's not at all unusual to find cultural influences and analogies in far futures - christologies aren't at all uncommon (see: Skywalker, Anakin) and you can often find very thinly disguised cultural analogues (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine did this with the Bajorans, who are a very obvious analogue to the nation of Israel). It's worth noting that, while we think of early SciFi as Flash Gordon adventure stories, some of the most direct progenitors of modern SciFi novels were actually the writers of dark political satires. George Orwell's 1984 is the obvious one - but another big name would be the Czech novelist Karl Capek - who is best known for coining the word "robot". He did a book called "The War With the Newts," which is considered a classic of Czech literature, that basically used the discovery of a race of sentient amphibians to build an not-at-all veiled analogy to Hitler in the person of the "Chief Salamander". (The translation is next up in my pile of physical books to read.)

    Also regarding the Islamic influence, I do think it's important to place this book in 1968 - given that Muslims may be the one group that is MORE "othered" today than in the 1960s. Use of Arabic terminology at that point would have been more about exoticization than the post-9/11 debate about terrorism.
     
    Mckk and VynniL like this.

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