I understand what you mean by saying you personally wouldn't say any of the expressions "a typical American way of thinking", "a typically American way of thinking", "a typical, American way of thinking" and "a typical-American way of thinking". For they are associated with some stereotypes of Americans. I know your constructions "You think like an American." and "That is an American way of thinking." are neutral in tone and not offensive and you intend them to be that way. But what has now perplexed me most is that I have never seen the last two of the four used anywhere but some who responded to my questions insisted that these two are correct in every sense while the first two are completely wrong. Several of those who have responded to my first post and later ones tried very very hard to differentiate "a typical American way of thinking" and "a typically American way of thinking", but I, a dumb head, always insist that their nuance can be neglected. And of course the best way is not to use any of the two to avoid possible offense. I also insist that "a typical American way of thinking" is more often used by people in their conversations instead of "a typically American way of thinking" in order to make the flow of information go more smoothly or to save energy. But that does not mean "a typical American way of thinking" cannot be used in writing. Nowadays, the dividing line between speech and writing is increasingly blurred due to new IT techonology introduced all the time. Besides, in my humble opinion, "a cast-iron pot" is a good example of non-coordinate modifier, but "a typical American way of thinking" is something tricky and can easily make nonnatives ever more confused. It is really funny to explain "a typical American way of thinking" as "a typical way of thinking which happens to be American"; it is like a tongue twister or a word game. To conclude, I am inclined to think that "a typical American way of thinking" or "typical American logic" as Kas put it comes from "a typically American (way of thinking)" and can be used in both speech and writing.
I would like you to answer this question. Do I appear to be in a confused state of mind while explaining my questions and view as ManhattanMss criticized? His criticism frightens me! I admit that I now cannot express ideas just the same way you native speakrs do. But I always try to make things as clear as possible. Although I try very hard, I may still fall short of the goal. I know this but I was still shocked to hear that I talk about my questions in a confused manner.
I am not and was not criticizing your state of mind; I was taking you at your word that you're trying to learn better English, Richard, in order to communicate better with native English-speakers, or maybe to be more helpful to your students. This is not a simple task. Especially so when you demand simple answers to questions that are not very straightforward. Then, if you complicate this by asking why your question isn't being addressed in a straightforward way, you now have a multilayered discussion going on that tends to get beyond the question you might have actually had to begin with. Though it wasn't my intention to do so, I complicated that by trying to explain what I thought was a more complicated matter than I believe you perceived it to be. I might have been wrong; I might have expressed myself poorly; maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about. In any case, feel free to disregard my comments altogether, if that helps. If what you really want is straight concise answers to clear questions you have, I think your best shot at that is to look up the answer in a resource book. If you want a discussion about grammar and English, buckle up for a bumpy ride.
Richard, the simple answer is that they are different. We explained why they are different in the first few posts of the thread. However, the question about usage is one that you will not get an answer to here. In order to answer the question about whether "typical adjective noun" is used in some cases where "typically adjective noun" is intended, you would need to do some kind of empirical research. If you ask us our opinions, we will all tell you that they are slightly different because we are writers and know more about language than average lay-people. (theoretically) However, if you were to ask lay people I would guess that the answer would be "they are different but I don't really know how". And the difference after enough investigation would lead back to our explanation of the grammatical difference between "adjective adjective noun" versus "adverb adjective noun". As for the first question, as I said, it was explained in great detail earlier in this thread, and I won't explain it again. It is a technical question about the mechanics of English and therefore easily answered by the explanation of the use of coordinate adjectives versus adverbs modifying adjectives. As for your second question, you would need to do some research because it is a theoretical question that requires data to be proven or disproven. Of course, none of us here have that data because I would assume it is currently unresearched. As far as I can tell, there's no reason so assume that "typical american noun" is a derivative of "typically american noun" since they have different meanings. But it is possible, just unlikely IMO. As I said, if you ask us about that, we will all just say "no", but we can't justify it because we can only speak for ourselves, no for others. That's why you need research data. I would hypothesize the answer would be no (as I explained earlier in this post). Hope this is helpful for you.
I love this last sentence of your post as it best describes our discussion or we may call it a quarrel over this typical/typically issue. To tell you the truth, I never expected the ride would be this bumy when I started the thread, asking those questions. Perhaps there are many things in English and about English nonnative speakers can never aspire to understand thoroughly however hard he or she tries, though these things may be seemingly easy to understand. I have been riding on a galloping horse along a bumpy road. Although, to be frank, I find it still very hard to think your way of differentiating "a typical American+noun" from "a typically American +noun", I have learned a lot from this discussion. Now I have realized that most of you have been studying this issue from an academic perspective while I have been trying to get a clear-cut answer to something to which no one, who is serious about language use, can give a simple answer. I am sorry to have given you all so much trouble. And I will read all the posts carefully all over again and spend some time think over this issue. Thanks for your patience with me.
Given the determination you seem to have to sort out how grammar relates to meaning, I'm sure you'll get used to the bumpy ride. Don't think for a minute that it's only those learning English as a second language who find the ride challenging. We're all in that saddle. The English language is full of grammatical and structural opportunities to be extremely precise about very particular nuances (especially so in writing, where punctuation plays an important part, too). Rather than being restrictive to meaning (as folks sometimes seem to think), the precision of English grammar is largely responsible for allowing readers to understand our ideas in the way we intend. Although serious writers will "typically" () use some accepted resource to validate the choices they make, most of us still fall short of the excellence we shoot for. Most publishable writers eventually come to rely on (hopefully both) intelligent and insightful editors for help. And even they will have differences of opinion. After all, many fine authors acknowledge the contribution their editors have made--and probably with good reason.
L8 2 the fray but ... Richard, you are dealing with a few misconceptions and/or misunderstandings of the phrase. First, to address the "typical American" vs. "typically American" dilemma. Both are correct, depending upon the context. "Typical American" suggests that the person in question is an American and he or she behaves just as the speaker would expect all Americans to behave, therefor, he is typical of Americans and a "typical American". This could be considered a pejorative comment in most contexts. "Typically American" on the other hand, suggests something that calls to mind things American - baseball, hot dogs, and apple pie for example. Sandlot baseball is a typical American pasttime, ergo, it could be considered typically American. In general, the French, tend to consider Americans rude and base, so any American who may chance to venture into France and behaves boorishly would be considered to be behaving in a typically American fashion. The fine French folks would also consider the yank a typical American, since they believe all Americans behave in a similar manner. (Generally, the two concepts tend to overlap because the 'typical' American would pursue things and behave in a manner which is 'typically' American.) Now, as to the grapes in question: The phrase 'smoothly skinned', smoothly being adverbial form of smooth, turns skinned into a past tense verb. 'Smoothly' serves to described HOW the grape was skinned, that is, how the skin was removed from the grape. So, in one hand, you have a grape with a smooth skin. In the other hand, you have a grape with no skin but not a nick or flaw anywhere on the surface of the juicy, exposed inner fruit. And, if I had another hand, it would be holding the by-product of such a delightful fruit. (And, does that make my Gewertztraminer fruit juice?) So, when you break it down to the basics, 'smoothly', when in the company of a verb, is still an adverb.xper
"Way of thinking" is comprised of a noun, a preposition, and a state-of-being verb. The word you are looking for is 'paradigm'. Edit: Also, to Richard, I must be behind the discussion. I described the difference in meanings between typical American and typically American, and you rejected my description, saying that your own example was not sufficient. What, then, are you trying to ascertain?
Yes, the preposition + nominalized "state of being" verb acts as a giant adjective, basically. I was just trying to make it simple. Paradigm? Why do you bring that up? The word paradigm (in grammar) refers to the entire set of conjugations/inflections for a verb doesn't it?
