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  1. stevesh
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    stevesh Banned Contributor

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    UCLA and the Jews

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by stevesh, May 12, 2014.

  2. Hubardo
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    Hubardo Contributing Member Contributor

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    I have no idea how you've come to the conclusion that there is an infatuation with anti-Semitism within the "American Left" based on this article.
     
  3. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Did you notice the Jewish Voice for Peace is a group that wishes Israel would stop mistreating Palestinians?

    http://dailybruin.com/2014/04/10/jewish-voice-for-peace-launches-new-chapter/
    So by "infatuation" are you claiming the left is anti-Semitic or they are against anti-Semitism?
     
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  4. stevesh
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    stevesh Banned Contributor

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    No, I'm claiming (based on a lot more evidence than just the article I linked to) that the American Left, especially in academia, has become increasingly anti-Jew and anti-Israel, supposedly in sympathy with the poor, down-trodden Palestinians.
     
  5. Mackers
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    Mackers Contributing Member

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    I've never really understood how you can be "anti-Jew" just because you highlight injustices against Palestinians...
     
  6. jazzabel
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    jazzabel Contributing Member Contributor

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    I don't think being sympathetic to Palestinian cause is automatically anti-Jewish. I have many Jewish friends who are also appalled by the state of Israel official policy. They all emigrated from Israel because over there, they are being attacked by the zionist establishment, and get called 'self-hating Jews'.

    I believe what the state of Israel is doing is psychological displacement. They are displacing their hatred and trauma they suffered in Europe, and re-enacting it towards the Palestinians. Their rage should be directed at the nazis, but they aren't in Europe anymore, and the nazis as well as all the collaborators are very much out of their reach for any sort of revenge. They never actually had their revenge, the war ended, they were so traumatised and then someone gifted them a country thousands of miles away. So they adopted this xenophobic, extremely defensive, attack is the best form of defence attitude, fixated on Palestinians and it is next to impossible to reason with them about it. Obviously, it doesn't help that the Muslims are so extreme, it only gives them an excuse. Saudi Arabia and the US are adding fuel to the fire (on both sides) for their ends and so it continues.

    Just last year, Serbia was presiding over UN General Assembly, and, out of sense of justice, we facilitated for Palestine to get the seat in the UN (something US and Israel were blocking for decades) despite a very close friendship with Israel. Suffice it to say, Israel retaliated immediately, in form of lending a judge who had no qualms to bury international law and ensure that previously very strong conviction of Croatia for 'conspiracy to commit crimes against humanity' (referring to large scale ethnic cleansing they committed) Croatian war criminals were released following appeal and now nobody's legally responsible for half a million Serbs who were ethnically cleansed in Yugoslav war. I would not be surprised if we were on their black list permanently now, despite sharing so much history together and being brothers in suffering. It's a unique state of mind they are having, and I think the world is right to want to put an end to unnecessary terrorising of Palestinians. Which doesn't mean the world is 'anti-Semitic' as much as official Israel would like to see it that way.
     
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  7. EdFromNY
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    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    I'm always leery about statements that treat the "American left" as a monolith (or the "American right", for that matter). That said, given that support for Israel has, to varying degrees, been a part of American foreign policy for several decades; and given the (alleged) link between support for Israel and the wrath of certain groups, some of which engage in terrorist activities directed against the US; and given that US response to said attacks has been two wars; and given that most elements of the "American left" - and, for that matter, academia - have been staunchly anti-war for the last half century or so; and given the tendency toward overly-simplistic sound-bite histrionics as a substitute for thoughtful political debate in all corners of the American polity; I can see how such a conclusion might be drawn.

    My inner-cynic says because most people don't like to be called an anti-semite, and so it becomes a way to make a certain viewpoint less tenable.
     
  8. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    Wait a minute,you don't agree your government should be spending billions of dollars each year on another country? You must be racist....
     
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  9. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    'especially in academia'? What can you point to that suggests this is the case?
     
  10. minstrel
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    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Oh boy. I can see already that moderating this thread will require drones, remotely-operated vehicles, hazmat suits, and ample supplies of antibiotics and Vicodin.

    I gotta go see if all that is in the forum budget...
     
  11. EdFromNY
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    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    "One with the universe...nothing matters..." - from the film "Slap Shot".
     
  12. Link the Writer
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    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    I would like to preface that I understand and agree with what you're saying. I'm not trying to dispute you in any way.

    In addition to what you said, here's my two cents on this. There is a part of me that can understand why Israel is doing this. Spend the last two thousand years being the world's chew toy; facing persecution and discrimination because you were Jewish and having to endure pogroms and the Holocaust, you would leave bitter and wanting revenge as well. You would leave not wanting to hear what the world says, because why would you? You spent the past two thousand years with the world not giving a damn about you and using you as a glorified punching bag every time something went wrong, so why would you start giving a damn about the world?

    Don't get me wrong, I also don't think treating Palestinians like second-class citizens is going to solve anything. I was just sharing something that was scooting around in my brain for a while. :D
     
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  13. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Things I don't debate on Internet forums:

    Abortion
    Male circumcision
    The Israeli -Palestinian conflict​

    For someone who hates testy debates, @stevesh, you've certainly opened multiple cans of worms here.
     
  14. jazzabel
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    jazzabel Contributing Member Contributor

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    You are absolutely right @Link the Writer . This displacement is understandable, but still, in my opinion, needs to be resolved, because it's hurting Israel at least as much as it does Palestine.
     
  15. Ben414
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    Ben414 Contributing Member Contributor

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    I wouldn't disagree that the Holocaust still plays a role in Israeli politics; I'm just not sure how much is a cover versus being actual reasons. Either way, though, there are other original reasons that are stronger in my opinion.

    First, the racial tensions existed before WW II as Britain allowed a huge influx of Jewish immigrants into Palestine in late 19th century through early 20th century. The Arab population believed the British were treating the Jews more favorably and the Jews thought the Arabs were being treated more favorably. The British furthered this belief by flip-flopping their policy and promising each side things it didn't fulfill.

    Then, Britain relinquished control over Palestine without establishing legitimate territories and governments to fill the gap. They were being attacked by both Arab and Jewish groups when they decided to leave, but they were still responsible for the land they had gained through imperialism. After leaving behind a shaky system, it failed and war broke out. After the war, each side refuted the legitimacy of each other.

    Anyway, it should be obvious that opposing Israel's policy on the Palestinians is not tantamount to anti-semitism. The conflict is not that black-and-white.

    Also, I'm always intrigued by what the "American left" is supposed to be. Does it include neo-liberals who are split between democrats and republicans? Or it merely the amorphous 2nd stage liberals? I believe it would make more sense to divide people into neo-liberalism and 2nd stage liberalism if you need a dichotomy that will inevitably not fit everyone perfectly.
     
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  16. minstrel
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    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Staff Supporter Contributor

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    What's a 2nd-stage liberal? What's the difference between neo-liberalism and 2nd stage liberalism? Is there a 13th stage liberalism? 'Cause that sounds cool. :crazy:
     
  17. Ben414
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    Ben414 Contributing Member Contributor

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    Considering the way that any one theory can never fully define even one person, someone might as well call themselves a 13th stage liberal! I prefer the lucky 7th stage, but it's personal choice. ;)
     
  18. Oswiecenie
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    Oswiecenie Active Member

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    I wonder when the public will finally start criticizing Jewish anti-Goyimism, which is rampant in Israel as well as the Jewish diaspora. Personally, I have no grudge against normal Jews, but the Jews seriously need to repent their crimes and learn to behave themselves. As regards the Israel-Palestine conflict, there is of course only one side that is right and that is Palestine.



    From the river to the sea, Palestina will be free.
     
  19. EdFromNY
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    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    Time to "unwatch".
     
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  20. Link the Writer
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    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    <__<

    >__>

    Oh! Look! A thread about the writing process! I gotta go! Bye-zi!

    *flees*
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2014
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  21. Hubardo
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    Hubardo Contributing Member Contributor

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    Do you have a similar opinion about the Americas? For example, Mexicans and Native Americans could be considered under illegal occupation by European Americans.
     
  22. Ben414
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    Ben414 Contributing Member Contributor

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    I wasn't sure if this was a troll or not, so I decided to look up his post history. I laughed when I saw him reply to a thread titled "Should I be afraid to offend?" wherein he replied "Nowadays it's pretty much impossible to be truly offensive... so just write what's on your mind."

    Well, I guess this thread has proven him wrong. It's probably time for me to also check out of this thread.
     
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  23. Oswiecenie
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    Oswiecenie Active Member

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    In principle yes, but things are a bit different here. First of all, it is possible to criticize the US openly without the discussion being shut down because of anti-Americanism. Second, Americans don't use e.g. the persecution of the Pilgrims in England as an excuse for their wrong doings or to blackmail non-Americans into serving American interests.
     
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