So, i was wondering how, and if, you should include 'of' when speaking somebody's last name, especially if it is in a foreign language. e.g: John of Gloucester Jacque de Troyes Would you say 'of Gloucester' or 'Gloucester' in a phrase like this: "XX says that turnips are blue." And, would this still apply in foreign names? Such as french (de) or german (von) (or any other language)? I asked this because families like Hapsburgs where called "von Hapsburg", yet in many texts they are referenced as either "Hapsburgs" or "Von Hapsburg" or "von Hapsburg" in a seemingly interchangeable fashion. Then, you have last names that are almost uniquely said with the "von" or equivalent, but some, primarily with English names, are said almost always without. Anyone got any clarification?