Using Italics for characters thoughts?

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by CodeZone, Aug 9, 2013.

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  1. BritInFrance

    BritInFrance Active Member

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    phhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwww, Brit thought. Glad that has been clarified!
     
  2. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    The problem is that there are no authoritative guides when it comes to stylistic preferences in fiction writing. Even the Chicago Manual of Style, which is the guide most publishers use, doesn't say anything about using italics for thoughts.
     
  3. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Of course there are authoritative guides. They just don't all agree on a few issues. And, yes, the CMOS doesn't say "don't do it", they merely don't list 'italics for inner dialogue' under when to use italics.

    IIRC, they do state not to use quotes around thoughts, but I took my copy back to the library so I can't check my memory at the moment.

    I don't have a problem with style rules. I think they are extremely useful. I just had a problem with the insistence on this particular 'absolute' fact that wasn't.
     
  4. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    Any fiction writing guide is essentially the author's preferred way of doing things. There are so many different styles/preferences in fiction that having authoritative guides is basically meaningless.
     
  5. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I don't know, 99% of the preferred way you speak of in style guides are consistent with each other. There's a reason for consistency in grammar and style rules. They help to keep a language intact which we need to communicate effectively.

    I agree there are no absolute rules a writer need be afraid to detour from, when the writer has a reason and that reason need only matter to the writer. But how does one teach language to the child if there are no rules of syntax and grammar? Some of the rules may indeed be arbitrary, but they've been passed down like the language itself has been passed down.

    I find a lot of reasons to value agreed upon style rules. I've also been a challenger of the rules by nature, (as my parents would tell you if they were still alive ;) ). I also welcome change and innovation.

    And I don't find those three statements inconsistent with each other.
     
  6. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    I agree that we need grammar rules (if only as an agreed upon starting place), but those are different from preferences like using italics for thoughts or choosing not to use quotation marks to denote dialogue. Such things are chosen by the writer and shouldn't be part of any authoritative guide IMO.
     
  7. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Then what do you call the Chicago Manual of Style, a list of preferences? I don't think I'm understanding you exactly.
     
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  8. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Christ. Here we go again.

    Have fun.
     
  9. CodeZone

    CodeZone New Member

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    I think I understand what thirdwind is trying to say. I think he's not talking about explaining or teaching language to a child or even someone new to writing. He's just trying to say its important for things like italics or quotes to have rules and boundaries so that people aren't just putting them where ever they feel like it. It's also important to be innovative and change how things are done as you mentioned. Once we reach a point where we know our rules will suffice for everyone to understand each other it becomes preference based after that. I'm sure you would have no confusion reading my story whether I used italics or quotes or implied thoughts. I think we are are all looking at the same picture just from a different angle. The reason I posted this was to get ideas and input about the pros and cons of italics or different ways to convey thoughts. I had no intention to try to find out what should be the right rules for this but to find out what intelligent people enjoy reading and what other writers see as a productive or efficient way of expressing character thoughts. I think some of these posts on hear fail to clarify everyone's thoughts clearly which is enjoyably ironic!
     
  10. heal41hp

    heal41hp Active Member

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    I've struggled with how to format thought for a while. I've seen it in italics plenty of times but I wasn't convinced that was the elegant solution, especially once I was introduced to how Orson Scott Card did it in the Ender series. There are no italics, quotes, thought tags, or any of that. It doesn't get its own paragraph. It's just... there. And you can clearly tell what's thought and what's narration, because the 3rd person is interrupted by first person. I'd never encountered anything like it before. (and, admittedly, I've only read the first few pages of Ender's Game because it was free on Amazon as a preview...) I've also never encountered anything like it since.

    Generally speaking, is this acceptable/palatable? We can't just do things because big names got away with it so I thought I'd ask about it. It's so unusual that I feel uncomfortable emulating the style but I was able to figure it out, so I'm sure most everyone else could, too.

    I'm not sure I'm coherent at this point. If not, I apologize. Feel free to stick me in the eye with a sharp stick...
     
  11. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    The CMoS is a guide for grammar and syntax rules, which, like I mentioned earlier, is an agreed upon starting place for all writers. Stylistic preferences are things like using or not using quotes for dialogue. In fiction, such preferences wouldn't fall in the realm of traditional grammar rules. The thing about fiction is that so many rules can be bent or broken, so any fiction writing guide is simply a reflection of the author's personal preferences and thus should not be considered authoritative sources.

    Also, just to be clear, I have no issue with using italics for thoughts. I just wanted to point out that citing a fiction writing guide is merely citing another writer's personal preference.

    Yes. A lot of writers do it this way.
     
  12. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    This style isn't unique to Card at all. I just finished reading The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell wherein thoughts were presented in this same fashion. Not italics, and rarely any tags. The fact that it was inner thought was plainly clear through context. There was never the slightest confusion between character thinking and 3rd Person narrator narrating. You will see both italics and no italics in print. Unless self publishing (where the choice is purely yours) it's a simple matter of checking with the publisher's guidelines before any submission.
     
  13. lettuce head

    lettuce head Active Member

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    The last time I visited this site, I thought, "Wasn't Ginger getting all into the use of italics for inner dialog last time I was here?" I read through it all last time, and I'll read through it all again this time and next. Why? I like it. And I like you, since you were the first person to show any form of kindness to me when I first showed up here.

    I prefer quotes for inner dialog. I don't use it too much because it does seem to make the character a bit crazy talking out all the time. On the other hand, italics seems too contemporary to me, too cute. But this is just preference.
     
  14. heal41hp

    heal41hp Active Member

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    Thanks for the quick responses! That was kinda crazy...

    I'm encouraged to know that approach to thoughts is more prevalent than just in Card's work. I can't help but wonder how I haven't stumbled across it before! I'm sure that, now that I know it exists, I'll be running into it everywhere... But this doesn't help me figure out which method is best. I guess I'll just have to buckle down and make a decision on what's right for me (and publishers, should it come to that).

    It's issues like these that show writing is as much art as painting or any of that other stuff.
     
  15. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    The reason these debates are kind of silly is any person can walk into any bookstore and find numerous examples of books using italics for thoughts, both from new and established writers, and numerous examples of people not using italics for thoughts. The only thing that matter is what a given publisher or editor wants to see. Once the book is published, I doubt most readers are going to care too much.
     
  16. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    If readers don't care then publishers probably wouldn't either, on the whole anyway. After all, publishers are readers, and they likely know readers well if they are successful publishers.
     
  17. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I too, found the controversy rather crazy. As an interesting parallel, consider the controversy the first Impressionists and Pop Artists caused when they introduced drastically new styles of art.
     
  18. heal41hp

    heal41hp Active Member

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    I can't even fathom the amount of confidence it would take to not only conceive of and create such works but to also stand beside it before all the detractors.
     
  19. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Random thoughts, trying to make it clear which is my opinion and which is not:

    - _I_ am firmly and emphatically opposed to ever, ever using italics for thoughts. That's my opinion.

    - Usually, you don't need quotes for thoughts either. I think that's broader than just my opinion.

    - There's disagreement about how large a percentage of publishers and agents are opposed to italics for thoughts, and whether a manuscript would be rejected based on their use if it's fine and dandy on all other grounds.

    - My feeling is that writing without needing italics for thoughts is a skill, and an author should have that skill even if he chooses not to use it. (Ginger, I'm not saying lazy and slipshod! But it is a skill different from writing with italics, and if the publisher of your heart's desire hates italics, it would be handy to have.)

    - My perception is that the use of italics for thoughts is relatively new, and that therefore younger people are more likely to like/tolerate them than older. I have no evidence whatsoever for this assertion and it could be wrong.

    - I've rarely seen anyone say that publishers/agents would reject a manuscript for _not_ using italics for thoughts, so my view is that it's always safest to avoid them. That view is, of course, fueled by the fact that I dislike them and am therefore completely unmotivated to find a safe way to use them.

    - If you do want to use italics for thoughts, you have maximum flexibility if you write so that you don't need them, and if you create a special style for italicized thoughts. That way, if an agent doesn't like them, you can just change that style to remove the italics; if an agent does, you can leave the italics.

    - This always strikes me as a problem, because if you use italics for thoughts, that should allow you to eliminate a certain amount of attribution clutter, but if you're writing to be able to eliminate the italics with one sweep of the style sheet, you still need that clutter. The main (as I see it) stylistic advantage of using italics for thoughts is therefore lost.

    - Once again, I'm unmotivated to fix this fact, since I disike the things.

    - However, thoughts, in italics or not in italics, don't need attribution nearly as often as people think they do, especially if you're using first person or a close third person point of view. For example, if I remove both italics and attributions from your example, and tweak it a little, I think it works just fine:

    “W-w-why?” she stuttered, startling him from his trance.

    Kei opened his mouth to respond, then paused. Why indeed? This was, after all, his first step to leaving the life of a street rat behind. But that was a lie, and lying to someone who'd been thorugh such trama didn't feel right--though assassinating someone who had never done anything to him, good or bad, didn't bother him at all.


    I put Kei's thoughts in his own paragraph, making it clearer that that paragraph is about him. I change from first to third person, though I don't think that I absolutely had to do that. I removed attributions, which made some sentences shorter and allowed me to combine them.

    I am concerned about the "though assassinating..." part--it feels like a narrator's thought, not Kei's thought, so it might subtly violate a close third person point of view.
     
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  20. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Why do you insist it is skill vs preference? That is the judgement I don't buy.
     
  21. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Writing first person POV is a skill. Writing third person POV is a skill. The choice between them is also a preference. The same is true for writing with italics for thoughts and writing without italics for thoughts. I'm not saying that writing with italics for thoughts isn't a skill.
     
  22. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    So, using italics is a skill, and, not using them is a skill?

    From my viewpoint, there's nothing special about using italics for thoughts or not using them. The writing skill is not dependent upon either preference.
     
  23. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Yep. They're both skills. I don't aspire to develop the skill of writing thoughts in italics, any more than I aspire to develop the skill of writing in first person present tense--I don't like reading either one, so why would I want to write them? And because I don't like them, I'm not all that aware of the nuances of either skill. But I'm sure that the nuances are there.

    I think that they're different. For example, using italics would probably let you use first person thoughts more easily, without attribution clutter. That means that you may be writing more first person thoughts. That means that you'll need to write those thoughts in the character's voice, rather than your narrative voice. That's a skill. And that's just one difference. Another needed skill would probably be avoiding too many shifts from narrative to thought, so that you avoid a checkerboard of italic and non italic.

    On the other hand, not using italics means that you have to develop other ways of making it clear that thoughts are thoughts, ideally without, again, a lot of attribution clutter. That's a different skill. It's a skill that I personally value more, just as I value the skill of frying a chicken well more than that of frying fish well. I don't like fish. That doesn't mean that I say that fish cooks are lacking in cooking skill.

    Level of skill, no. Nature of skill, yes, as discussed above. Writing involves, IMO, a whole lot of separate skills. Dozens. Probably hundreds.
     
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  24. CodeZone

    CodeZone New Member

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    I just finished my seventh page and I wrote all the thoughts in italics. I copied that and then rewrote all the the thoughts without italics, but with attributions. After reading you post I copied it a third time removed the attributions and did some tweaks as well to remove clutter. I'm sure I didn't get it all as smooth as your example yet, but I definitely liked the third rendition much better. I actually don't think the italics were bad. The second with attributions actually did seem rather poor and cluttered. Ugly writing! I tried to read them all as someone would for the first time and as a reader I can see how it seems cleaner and more professional. As you stated it is a skill and I found making it transition or flow was more difficult with the third rather than using italics in the first.

    When you said the stylistic advantage is null and void if you have to be able to write without italics it struck a cord with me as well. That's a very good point!

    I also think you are correct about it being a newer style and more appealing to a younger crowd. However I think it will become more common place as it is gaining some ground in published works. I think that writers need to find a stylistic advantage to using it for it be justified though. In my case I couldn't think of any advantage that would set it apart and would only work with italics for what I'm currently working on. Thus it seems I think I will be shying away from using it. I still consider italics an option and I think they will find a place in some of my future works.
     
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  25. CodeZone

    CodeZone New Member

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    I also forgot to mention that the last part is also Kei's thought. He is a very self-aware character and when thinking about himself it can seem or is best written in his own third person view of himself. It's something I will have to pay close attention to so that it doesn't get confused with the narrator's thoughts. I think that once readers get used to Kei occasionally thinking this way and if I make sure the breaks are decently clear from his thoughts to the narrator's it won't be a big problem. It's part of the reason I began trying to use italics in the first place. Kei doesn't really speak to himself but rather thinks of himself from an outside perspective occasionally.
     

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