1. Macaberz
    Offline

    Macaberz Pay it forward Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2012
    Messages:
    3,146
    Likes Received:
    297
    Location:
    Arnhem, The Netherlands

    What if WW2 had been won by Germany?

    Discussion in 'Setting Development' started by Macaberz, Feb 18, 2014.

    Note: this topic is intended to discuss a 'what if...' scenario only. As you're all aware, this is a sensitive subject so please reply thoughtfully. Thanks.

    Though this may sound like something more well suited to be put in the lounge, I thought I'd put it here as my interests lies in this is from a writing perspective.

    So the question is rather simple. What if WW2 had been won by Germany? If a story started in, say, the year 2000, what would western society look like?

    It seems to me that such a society would be quite an interesting backdrop for a story. But then again, I agree with the notion that ideas are cheap so I am not here to have that validated.

    Now in terms of how such a world would work, I can think of quite a few things myself, but I am interested in your thoughts as well. Something I didn't think of for example was that, without a war going on, the leaders of the NSDAP might actually have started to quibble amongst each other and began an internal war for control.

    Would Hitler still be the supreme leader of Germany or would some other prominents have conspired against him and disposed of him? From what we know, not all of his henchman were as loyal to him as they pleaded to be...

    Also, would technology have developed the same way? Personally I don't think so, but I find it hard to imagine how else it would've.

    Just to be perfectly clear, I can think of a lot of things myself but since this all belongs in the realm of fiction, I thought it'd be interesting to hear some other people's thoughts on it as well.
     
  2. Wreybies
    Offline

    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    18,837
    Likes Received:
    10,013
    Location:
    Puerto Rico
    If the story starts in 2000, regardless of what may or may not have transpired after Germany's victory, Hitler would be 111 years old. Proooobably not the leader anymore. ;)

    (BTW, moving this to Setting Development)
     
    Macaberz likes this.
  3. Mackers
    Offline

    Mackers Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2012
    Messages:
    433
    Likes Received:
    268
    Location:
    Co. Tyrone, Ireland
  4. Macaberz
    Offline

    Macaberz Pay it forward Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2012
    Messages:
    3,146
    Likes Received:
    297
    Location:
    Arnhem, The Netherlands
    Touché.

    Looks very interesting! Thanks!
     
  5. Wreybies
    Offline

    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    18,837
    Likes Received:
    10,013
    Location:
    Puerto Rico
    There are actually a number of alternate history fiction books that tackle the topic. Not surprising given how pivotal the period of time was.

    http://www.abebooks.com/books/war-alternate-reality-fiction-history-turtledove/alternative-histories.shtml
     
    Macaberz and Thomas Kitchen like this.
  6. Mackers
    Offline

    Mackers Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2012
    Messages:
    433
    Likes Received:
    268
    Location:
    Co. Tyrone, Ireland
    Macaberz likes this.
  7. DPVP
    Offline

    DPVP Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2013
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    20
    I think it would depend on how; they won? and who was involved? Did the US get involved? what about the USSR? What happened to China? and the British Empire?

    I think you can create a lot of senerios by mixing and matching those questions. you could have everything from a much stronger Germany that has more turf and took over overseas territories, to a massive German monolith of power over Europe. maybe Germany had a Cold War with the USSR, or North America.
     
    Macaberz likes this.
  8. chicagoliz
    Offline

    chicagoliz Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    3,295
    Likes Received:
    815
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I was also going to suggest Fatherland and note that there have been quite a few others with this scenario. Philip Roth wrote one about FDR losing the election for a third term, and in his book, the term was won by Charles Lindbergh, and U.S. entry into the war was delayed. (One problem I had with that book is that he notes some things that happen in the "future" -- our past, such as JFK, but I think it is doubtful that the rest of the future post 1944 would have carried out in the same way that it actually did.)

    Anyway, I would think that the whole Cold War would have been very different. Germany certainly would have been a Superpower, and would have remained a foe. The "Communists" would not have been seen as the sole "other side" or threat to the U.S. way of life. Would we have remained at least cordial with Stalin? What would have happened to countries like Italy and France which were occupied by the Nazis? (I realize that Italy was an Axis country, but after 1943, they weren't really so much into it and the Nazis ended up occupying Italy and had all kinds of plans to blow up bridges and such in Florence and in other parts of Italy.)

    I suspect we would not have cared so much about what was going on in Korea and Vietnam, as there would not have been this singular lens through which we viewed any unrest (which was Communism.) Would France have even been defending it's hold on Vietnam? And of course, what would have happened with Japan? Would they have been granted domination in this part of the world? How would their claim to China have ended up?

    There's a lot to think about in this scenario.
     
    Macaberz likes this.
  9. peachalulu
    Offline

    peachalulu Contributing Member Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    3,821
    Likes Received:
    2,379
    Location:
    occasionally Oz , mainly Canada
    What a domino effect.
    Arts, movies, peoples looks, fashion, social customs, laws would all be drastically altered. If America, having heavily influenced the world through media, is suddenly under a censoring regime - that would be rather stifling - land of the free it would not be. Plus what would happen to their trades with China?
     
    Macaberz likes this.
  10. chicagoliz
    Offline

    chicagoliz Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    3,295
    Likes Received:
    815
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Actually, this brings up a point -- what is meant by "winning?" Does that mean that Hitler and his regime and the other Axis powers gained total domination of every country? Or does it mean that the US and British Empire surrendered and there was a truce, so they were left more or less to go on ruling themselves? I have a very difficult time imagining the US capitulating to a scenario where Britain fell under Nazi control. Maybe unless the Nazis developed nukes and used them. (And if they did, what would become of Canada? I don't see any way the US would allow Canada to become a part of the Nazi regime, and if somehow they did, that would be a tenuous peace.)
     
    Macaberz likes this.
  11. Storysmith
    Offline

    Storysmith Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2014
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    23
    Assuming that by winning the war, you mean that Germany militarily defeated Britain, the US, the USSR and possibly Japan, the next question is how could they keep the peace? Occupied Europe had already tied up lots of German troops, so adding more countries to control would have spread their troops even thinner. I know that the British government distributed caches of arms and explosives to landowners, e.g. farmers, so that they could use their knowledge of the countryside to form a resistance. I imagine other countries would have acted similarly, so imagine that happening across North America or the USSR.

    You should also research what Hitler planned for Germany once it conquered other countries. That should give you lots of ideas and plot lines. Then imagine another half-century of history after all of that, since you want to set your story in 2000.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2014
    Macaberz likes this.
  12. Macaberz
    Offline

    Macaberz Pay it forward Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2012
    Messages:
    3,146
    Likes Received:
    297
    Location:
    Arnhem, The Netherlands
    This is all very good advice. So good in fact that I was inspired to start this little piece. It's not heavy on the setting really, but it could fit into a 1960s+ 'Germany won' setting. Feel free to take a look (I am not posting it here in full because this would be the wrong place for it).

    http://www.writingforums.org/blog/macaberz.51076/
     
  13. Thomas Kitchen
    Offline

    Thomas Kitchen Proofreader in the Making Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,258
    Likes Received:
    422
    Location:
    I'm Welsh - and proud!
    @Wreybies - thanks for the link. I've always been interested in alternate histories, but I've never pursued it. I've now bought a bunch of them, because when I like something, I become obsessed! The Eden Trilogy, Aztec Century, Resurrection Day, The Plot Against America, Fatherland, The Years of Rice and Salt, and Romanitas shall soon be added to my bookshelf, all for £34.18/$57.01, including P&P. That works out at £3.80/$6.34 per book, so I'm rather pleased. I particularly look forward to reading Romanitas and Fatherland. :)

    Thanks!
     
  14. Wreybies
    Offline

    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    18,837
    Likes Received:
    10,013
    Location:
    Puerto Rico
    You are welcome. :) Alternate history interests me too. The last one I read to that tune was China Mountain Zhang which is a little bit more of a future history than a "what if this had happened instead" history. It plays out a story where the current, very real economic shift toward Asia gets extrapolated out. It's quite interesting. (I have a secret/not so secret passion for all things Asia) :D
     
  15. Bryan Romer
    Offline

    Bryan Romer Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2014
    Messages:
    891
    Likes Received:
    381
    The major factor leading to Germany's defeat was the USSR. If Germany won, it would be very interesting if the USSR territories merged with Greater Germany. By 2000, the government might be a mixture of Germans and Russians under a form of socialism.
     
  16. Wreybies
    Offline

    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    18,837
    Likes Received:
    10,013
    Location:
    Puerto Rico
    I don't know, man. After his anti-Semitism, Hitler's "dislike" of the Slavic peoples came a close second.
     
  17. chicagoliz
    Offline

    chicagoliz Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    3,295
    Likes Received:
    815
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I'm not so sure it was THE major factor. Stalin was desperate for the US and Britain to open up a western front, as they were taking the brunt of the fighting. Hitler hated the Russians, and the Russian soldiers were furious with the Germans. I don't think they would have lived peacefully together after the war.

    Neither Hitler nor Stalin were after some utopia that was allegedly good for all the people. They were dictators who wanted power for themselves. They would not have been friends.
     
  18. Morbius
    Offline

    Morbius Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    11
    History would have been rewritten to extoll the glory, bravado and might of the Third Reich, as it "saved" the world from the evils of Communism (when the USSR fell to Germany), the evils of Colonial Imperialists (when the UK fell to Germany), the evils of Capitalism (when the U.S. fell to Germany) and the evils of Judaism (When the "Jewish" problem was dealt with by Germany).

    The holocaust wouldn't have happened if Germany had won the war. The Nazis "first" solution to the "Jewish Problem" was to deport all Jews from Europe to the conquered African Island state of Madagascar. The military efforts of the US and UK forces against the German Afrika Corps prohibited this first plan from ever advancing. The "second" solution to the "Jewish Problem" was to deport them to slave labor camps in captured Slavic territories, but the military efforts of the Soviet Army halted that plan. It was the "third" solution that became the "Final Solution" to the "Jewish Problem", with genocide being the last in a series of diminishing options for Nazi Germany. So, with Germany winning the war, it would be realistic to expect a massive Jewish "reservation" called Madagascar.

    Germany invaded the USSR, in a large part, because it needed its vast oil reserves. When the USSR fell to Germany, the reinvigorated German War Machine would have dropped the proverbial 500 ton crap hammer on Britain, then focused on the USA.

    Japan was allied to Germany as part of the Axis Powers, so it would literally be a toss up as to them remaining allies or Germany pushing on to annex Asia into the Reich.

    Britons and Americans of Aryan ancestry would probably end up becoming citizens of the Reich, with non-Germanic people ending up as second class citizens. Jews from all over Europe, North America and Soviet territory would eventually be deported to the reservation in Madagascar.

    German would doubtlessly become the "official" language of all Reich territories, with educational requirements of learning at least 2 other "Lesser" languages.

    The 1960s counter culture movement, hippies, free love and rampant drug use would never have been allowed to happen under the Reich. A strict, disciplined, orderly society, with neat uniformed dress codes and hair styles would smother individuality. Rock & Roll would have been less "rebellion against the man" and more "Pro Aryan Superiority". The Boy Scouts would be replaced by the Hitler Youth.

    With Germany winning the war, the Atom Bomb would have been a German weapon and the 1960s "Space Race" would likely have been between Japan and Germany.

    Space Age innovations in technology would have produced Space Stations that were both emblazoned with Swastikas and bristling with weaponry. Astronauts as scientists and explorers would train side by side with Waffen SS Space Marines. Space Shuttles would have been a division of the Luftwaffe and armed for defense of the Reich against any extraterrestrial threat.

    At some point, after the war was won, Josef Goebbels' Ministry of Propaganda would be renamed to the more palatable Ministry of Information to make it more accepted by the conquered populations.

    The Gestapo would eventually evolve into a Department of State Security, non unlike the Department of Homeland Security, with a secret police subdivision that would eventually read everyone's email, txt messages, record their cell phone conversations and internet forums chats...all in the name of ferreting out enemies of the state.

    Nazi road check points would evolve from asking for "Papers Please" to high tech check points, similar to the TSA check points at air ports.

    Hitler died without children, so it is literally up to the writer to determine if he would have fathered children after Germany had won the war, and if the office of Fuhrer would be inherited like a King's throne.

    Most of the Generals and General Staff Members that turned on Hitler, did so because he was leading them down a path to destruction with losing the war. If the Fuhrer had lead Germany to victory in the war, loyalties may have ended up differently.

    That is about all that comes to mind, just off the top of my head. Anyway, its all just food for thought.
     
  19. davidm
    Offline

    davidm Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2013
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    85
    This shouldn't necessarily deter you, but these theme has been taken up a number of times. So the bar is high. The Man in the High Castle by Philip K. Dick is my favorite. Broadly, it's an alternate history novel set in a world in which Germany and Japan won World War II and occupied the U.S., splitting it into several different puppet states. But more specifically, it's an alternate history novel about an alternate history novel in which Germany and Japan lost World War II, with a big surprise ending. Classic Dick, highly recommended. It won the Nebula Award for 1962.
     
  20. jazzabel
    Offline

    jazzabel Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    4,273
    Likes Received:
    1,666
    Well, for one, there would be no (or very few) Jews, Serbs, gypsies, orthodox Armenians and the others nazis committed genocide against. History books would glorify death camps, or the truth about them would be buried (as it is distasteful to the ordinary German citizen). Nazi Germany would be more zealoted and insane than North Korea, but they'd take all the money and resources from around the world so they wouldn't necessarily be poor. Also, the world would have lost a sense of humour, since the Germans don't have any. Russia would be a massive labour camp, simply mined for resources. Maybe China would be too, or maybe they'd repel the Japanese and be the other world power (together with India, brazil etc). But in reality, all this is impossible, because nobody ever managed to conquer Russia or China and that's always the ultimate goal of expansion to the East. The territories are just too massive. 30 million Russians died in WW2, soldiers and civilians alike, and still, Russia won. That would be my major stumbling block in writing this kind of story,
     
  21. Man in the Box
    Offline

    Man in the Box Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    254
    Likes Received:
    41
    Location:
    Brazil
    Forget Communism. They would've been eradicated. Hitler winning means USSR falls under his control and, considering the Soviets were the root of communism, communism itself wouldn't propagate until somehow Hitler was defeated.

    Israel wouldn't exist, which would mean quite a lot since the Middle East wouldn't be in such a turmoil as it is today. Maybe the Arabs would unite into a single State once again?

    I'm absolutely certain that nothing would've happened the same way if Hitler won. A Nazi win means the USA, Britain, USSR are defeated and under Hitler's influence. It's possible there would be a resistance against Hitler, but where and when, that's completely open to imagination and speculation.

    I acutally think a new path for things would be a sort of Cold War which would happen after the USA and Nazi Germany agree to a ceasefire and then, Cold War takes place between them. It could even last until today.
     
  22. chicagoliz
    Offline

    chicagoliz Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    3,295
    Likes Received:
    815
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I don't necessarily think that a Nazi win would mean that the US, Britain and USSR were under Hitler's control. Maybe. But, the author of the story could also go with a scenario where the Allies surrender/sign a treaty, etc. granting Hitler extensive territories in Europe, etc. Maybe give him parts of the USSR. There are lots of different scenarios, with differing degrees of Nazi control of the Allied countries. There just might be room for Communism.

    But, yes - the Middle East would be different. As might Latin America -- the US might not have been able to prop up regimes and assassinate or overthrow various leaders in places like Iran, Guatemala, Panama, etc. Had the US not been interfering in Iranian affairs and propping up the Shah, there might not have been the Iranian Revolution. If the US were to remain autonomous, most likely none of the post-FDR presidents would have been elected. And what ends up happening in Latin America is a totally blank page. Would the Nazis have sought to control Latin America? Would the US, if it were capable of doing so, still follow the Monroe Doctrine? Would it attempt to do so? Would that lead to another war at some point?
     
  23. Storysmith
    Offline

    Storysmith Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2014
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    23
    If the US and Canada fell to the Germans, I could well see many Jews fleeing to Latin America, in much the same they left Europe in real history. I imagine that would have a pretty big impact on the development of that continent over the following decades, especially since many of them were well educated.
     
  24. Bryan Romer
    Offline

    Bryan Romer Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2014
    Messages:
    891
    Likes Received:
    381
    Germany's original plan for Russia was a daring direct strike for Moscow to destroy Stalin's government. There is some dispute as to whether it was Hitler or his Generals who decided upon an encircling strategy instead. Either way, if they had stuck with a direct assault on Moscow, things might have been different.

    Much of the hatred the Russians had for Germany was due to the extended and very bloody sieges. Stalin himself was not popular (to say the least). A swift, relatively bloodless decapitation of the Russian government would have at one stroke secure fuel for German and removed the Allies only significant ally in Europe. If Hitler had ruled Russia with a light hand, he might have kept it out of the war and secured his rear.

    If he had gone on to victory against Britain and then at least settled with the US, the Russians might very well have settled for a new, Nationalist Socialist state friendly to Germany.
     
  25. jazzabel
    Offline

    jazzabel Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    4,273
    Likes Received:
    1,666
    @Brian Romer: Considering that nazi rhetoric defined all the Slavic peoples as inferiors who should either be exterminated or made into slaves, I dare say that there would be no such thing as 'ruling Russia with a light hand'.
     

Share This Page