1. nacht
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    nacht Member

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    What is your view?

    Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by nacht, Oct 16, 2009.

    I want to bring something to peoples' thoughts here, and if you do not enjoy debating over politics or nation-wide policies, you don't have to post.

    What is your view on bureaucracy?
     
  2. Cogito
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    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Just so you know, discussion is encouraged on this site, but not debate, and especially not argument. Threads that become heated are promptly shut down.

    This site works based on cooperation, not conflict. Differences of opinion will, of course, arise, but they are discussed respectfully. Inflammatory topics such as politics or religion, if allowed at all, are closely monitored. Also, we are an international community, and discussions which disparage other members homelands are prohibited.

    With that out of the way, I will be surprised if anyone comes out in favor of bureacracy.
     
  3. Mercurial
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    Mercurial Contributing Member Contributor

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    Actually, I am. :D

    Bureaucracies are just efficient systems reflective of capitalism. Everyone is a part of bureaucracy from the minute they entered kindergarten, most people will work in bureaucracies, and you will die in one, too. Everyone who comments on this has some sort of natural bias (capitalist nations revolve around bureaucracies and so its citizens are more likely to embrace them than citizens from communist nations, for instance), and I do recognize mine, but bureaucracy seems to have this negative connotation (IE: The phrase "You're a bureaucrat!" usually doesnt bring happy images to mind), but that really doesnt make much sense to me.

    I'm not saying bureaucracies arent without their shortcomings. Red tape is immensely frustrating, and many bureaucrats seem to develop a sort of tunnel vision (teachers in the education system are a relatable example of this; did you ever have the teacher who made you do things the way they were taught, even if it was no longer required or taught differently?), and there is always this sense of alienation and impersonal atmosphere for the people working in them... (To which, I say, bring personality back! There's nothing wrong with that. :) )
    The biggest problem with bureaucracies do of course revolve around the Peter Principle... this sort of you rise to your incompetency, but in the end, we are much more productive with bureaucracies than without them.

    Look at all we have accomplished since the dawn of the industrial age. So much has happened so quickly! In the agricultural and nomadic societies, we didnt see nearly the amount of progression as we've seen since the industrial and information eras.

    I'm actually studying formal organizations and bureaucracies in my sociology course right now. I have my exam tomorrow. How interesting that this thread should pop up. :)
     
  4. mammamaia
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    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    no matter where it is, it usually sucks!

    not because it's a totally useless form of managment, but only because its designers and those in charge of running it next to never know what they're doing, or do do a good job, so it becomes a top-heavy black hole for gobbling up money that could well be spent much more effectively...

    i've been privy to its inner workings at the local, state and national level in the us, plus at its absolute worst, where it's been corrupted down to total unworkableness, by peoples who've been damned to being mired in it by their conquerors--here in the northern marianas, now, and previously, when living among the hopi, a native tribe in northern arizona...

    along with social diseases, diabetes and alcoholism, it's the worst of the many evils we 'civilized' folk gifted these simple, once-happy, 'primitive' indigenous ones with...
     
  5. Sabreur
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    Sabreur Contributing Member Contributor

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    Not in favor of bureaucracy. Not qualified to come up with an alternative though.
     
  6. Wreybies
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    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

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    Maia and I both live on tiny tropical islands that are about as far away from each other as you can geographically get, but these two islands both have crazy bureaucracies.

    In Puerto Rico we are currently in the throws of political upheaval as the new governor Luis Fortuno attempts to prune down the ridiculously overgrown government that we have here on the island. Yesterday there was a rally in San Juan to protest the the fact that 16,000 public employees have been made redundant as part of Fortuno's plan.


    There are to be 100,000 people to be made redundant in all.


    How does an island as tiny is Puerto Rico even have 100,000 public servants in all?!?!?!?!


    P.S. Puerto Rico (3515 sqr miles) fits easily into the county of Los Angeles (4752 sqr miles). Puerto Rico's government is 3 times as large as the government for the entire state of California.
     
  7. nacht
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    nacht Member

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    Wow...

    You weren't kidding about this becoming heated.

    Either way, I guess that since I got a few people to reply, I can throw my vote in.

    Bureaucracy has both up-sides and down-sides. While it is true that people do need some form of protocol in order to function, and some form of due process, it is also true that the red tape gets in the way far too often. For instance... a bureaucratic health system leaves too much in the doctors' way to save the patients in time. The same goes for a bureaucratic legal system. There's just far too much paperwork to get anything done efficiently, and the entire reason these people were hired is completely watered down due to the fact that they cannot make a legal judgment call.

    That's just my take on the subject.
     
  8. Irish87
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    Irish87 Contributing Member

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    I am a fond believer in the idea that we should be allowed to do anything we wish to do so long as we do not infringe on the rights of others. So immediately I am against a type of society which regulates behavior through intervening on every little choice. Regulation is perfectly fine, but at a certain point it becomes absurd, just as it would if we had no regulation. Bureaucracy is the afterbirth of over regulation.

    Admittedly, however, I am a Libertarian (small L) and a proud Capitalist. My apologies to those of whom I offend.
     
  9. mammamaia
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    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    far from 'tiny' compared to my really tiny isle, wrey!... tinian's only 4x10 miles [40 sq. miles, to your 3,515!], with only around 3,000 residents ...all of the islands of the northern marianas, plus guam, would fit into one little corner of yours... but i agree that we both have unwieldy, unworkable bureaucracies...
     
  10. DragonGrim
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    DragonGrim Contributing Member

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    My brain is kinda like a bureaucracy.

    But still, down with bureaucracy, and thumbs up to Irish’s post
     
  11. nacht
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    nacht Member

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    agreed.
     

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