haha, I appreciate that the idea seems unappalling to a lot of people. I once had a guy describe himself as a 'metrosexual' to me on a date and I was actually quite confused. I thought it was maybe a synonym for being bisexual or bicurious! I decided to be open minded about it. Alas, his problem wasn't even being a metrosexual, it was that he was pretentious and enjoyed giving himself labels. So I give him the label 'prick' when he left [I do hope that isn't censored]
I appreciated the irony I saw when I read the first line. This conversation is being sent through laptops and other devices. Anyway, man has always been a word with multiple meanings. It does not mean “male” when referring to mankind (a term that will not disappear, except in liberal classrooms.) That doesn’t mean that words such as humankind have no use. It’s good to have a broad vocabulary I could point out just as many famous men who act “macho.” Even if what you saw were true, it is not because we’ve become modern and insightful. Western civilization has gone through periods were masculinity has been defined differently. Take the dandies of the 1700s – it brings Yankee Doodle to mind. “Stuck a feather in his hat and called it macaroni (macaroni meaning dandy, who decorated themselves with feathers and many things considered feminine)
What goes around comes around. Look at homosexuality. Only not too long ago, gay people were getting put down and tossed about unfairly (Through ignorance and a lack of common sense at the time with certain people) were today it's not almost problemless in most places. Yet go back a few centuries in europe and well, it was abosolutely the thing! (well maybe Bisexual buut nonetheless). and it's the same with everything else "Labels" thats what humanity is good at isnt it. trying as hard as possible to find something (anything) different and labelling it for another box. (even if a century ago it was perfectly fine) Just when certain labels are taken away (for the good0 humanity finds a new difference in someone and starts labelling all over again.
Yeah absolutely, we should try to resist labels though where possible. I know it's only human nature but it's an ideal worth pursuing. Also, DragonGrim, it's difficult to deny that there's been a hell of a lot of progress though surely! Sure, homosexualty remains illegal in places like Malawi where openly gay people face custody. It does put into perspective how far we've come though in places like the UK where really only the Church are holding onto sexism and homophobia. Most people reject it for this very reason. Just as it's easier for women to resist traditional notions of femininity and pursue careers if they choose, it's easier for men to reject what it used to mean to 'be a man.'
I think the 'rites of passage' that lead from a boy to become a man are: * When a boy realizes that his actions affect not only himself but others too. * When a boy knows what he belileves and finally has the courage to say it or stand up for it. * When a boy realizes that it is his resonsiblity to stand up for those weaker than himself and protect them. * When a boy gains his independence from others: getting a driver's license; a job/being able to support himself; etc. * When a boy falls in love and considers that person as something to love and protect with compassion, caring, and understanding, even if sometimes it's not what he wants or wants to do. * When a boy can stand alone or with people he cares about without shrinking away becaue he is hurt or scared. * When he can take repsosiblity for his wrongs as well as understand his rights and act accordingly, even, again, if it's not what he wants to do. * When he comes to realize that love and feelings make him stronger and smarter. That physicality is not all there is to being a man. * When he realizes that women should be loved, cherished, and repected. * When he can be responsible for his children and stand firm to support them and be there for them no matter what. I think all these things are necessary in western society to determine when a boy becomes a man. A girl becoming a woman would have some of these same traits, but in a different way. Also, I think the differences between men and women are beauitful and we shouldn't be so eager to be considered under the same banner all the time.
TO be a MAN. It's hard to remove the biological definitions of a Man from this answer, because biology is a major portion of a man's psyche. The Frank and Beans are a major part of a man's self identity as a man. His courage comes from having big balls. His confidence comes from a well working member. His strength comes from his testosterone driven muscle contractions. Think about it this way, many men who go through testicular cancer and lose one or both balls often feels like less of a man because he has lost two little glands that hang in a sack of skin between his legs. Women can fully relate to this feeling as well, for example, women who have breast cancer and have lost a breast or two, it takes a long time for many breast cancer survivors to recover from the loss of their womanhood. It is a large adjustment to a man or a woman to lose a body part that they mentally associate their sexual identity with. As far as the psychological aspect of "what makes a man" it really depends on how any particular man defines manhood. For some it could be that having sex with lots of women makes him a man. For another it may be finding that wife and settling into married professional life. For more general values, some men value strength, physical or mental. Some men value sex appeal and their physical appearance. Some men value confidence, faked or real. Some men value being the provider, the stable rock, the sensitive, the liked, the feared, or any other number of archetypes a man may hold as their definition. The thing is each man is an individual and none can be fit into a box of what defines a man. What we look for in a mate or a friend is all pretty much the same, male or female. Most look for confidence, friendly, honest, kind, passionate...ect.ect.ect. So those traits really aren't what define a gender. Gender is much deeper than behavioral traits, it is deep seated archetypical belief bubbles that are rooted in our past experiences and dictate us through our subconsciousness and comes out in our everyday behaviors and reactions to external stimuli.
I love that. Being conscious of our differences is crucially important and isn't the same as being sexist or derogatory. We share many rites of passage, but we can't forget that men and women are fundamentally different, not only in regards to anatomy but in how we view each other and at times how we act and interact. We should at times celebrate this rather than try and create an androgynous society. I don't see this as being unequal. On a side note, I'm surprised at how fast this thread has taken off. Everyone seems to have established their own ideas of "manhood".
This. Difference is NOT inequality. Men and women are not "Separate but equal" but rather "Different AND equal." Do I want to act the way a woman does? No. Not out of some deep-rooted misogyny on my part or society's part or whatever but instead because men and women are DIFFERENT and I for one enjoy my manhood. (my girlfriend is also straight as an arrow in regards to sexuality so being a woman would deprive me of her unique love and companionship) I doubt most women wish they were men; I believe the opposite to be true for most men. I've said it before, I'll say it again. Differences between the sexes are important (and nowhere near as great as the differences between individuals regardless of their sex) and to say that equality would involve the total erosion of these differences is to trivialize the unique struggles men and women face.
When people talk about equality it isn't so much in a grand philosophical sense or making 'men and women the same.' They usually, at least in my circles, are talking about maternity conditions, the glass ceiling, the fact that in the UK women are paid 20% less on average for the same job. Only very few women make it as senior judges, CEOs, etc etc. So, although we should recognise the unique struggles men and women face, it's a fair bet to say the workplace is inherently unequal, some sectors more than others. This is why we speak about equality - it's not beause women want to go around acting like men or vice versa....
I agree. Women do face discrimination; I'll be the first to admit it and the first to say it is pointless and juvenile, equivalent to schoolyard jibes about "cooties" and girls being "icky." That does not remove the fact that the way this discrimination manifests is almost never juvenile but rather incredibly unfair and demeaning. it is unacceptable that women are viewed as inferior to men, if not explicitly than implicitly through things such as wages and the like. (though, what is more explicit than earning lower wages?) I'll stand with you on that one, it should be remedied.
If you're born a man you're a man. Such human qualities as compassion, empathy etc etc are not specific to any gender, sex etc etc. Pointless thread, sorry.
Which is why I am trying to also write a strong male as the main character in my book. In the book, he and another guy are out riding around a little too fast in friends fathers car. First chapter, first few pages they hit a dog at hight, and stop on a bridge with the dog trapped under the front bumper of the car. Brent, the non MC, decides to get back in the car and run for it. Carl, the MC, wrestles the car keys from Brents hands and throws them into the river below the bridge. A lot should be written about what makes a good male. Homer Simpson is a funny guy, and a good guy, but he's not quite what I have in mind as a strong male that we should look up to. Fred McMurry as the father on my three sons is much better example I think of what a man should be. But one came of age in the 1960's, the other character came about in the late 1980's. Personally, I think that our culture is slipping in terms of what it expects of men, and I don't like it. Be free to disagree. I do like that Homer is a family guy and loves his wife and children. I can really relate to that! Chris
I share what your saying, and I have kind of a dystopia n view on this. Personally, I think with the rise of certain conservative religious philosophies, be they Amish or Muslim or Buddhist, will further degrade the role of females. And it just makes me utterly, utterly livid. Chris
Masculinity and male identity are entirely a social construct, and an increasingly archaic and maladaptive one at that, like marriage, heterosexuality and religion. Male-ness was at one time necessary when humans had to fight to survive, to establish heirarchy and many other social reasons, but that same hyper-masculinity is unnecessary nowadays and in my opinion alienates it's adherents, who are unable to fulfill their culturally-imposed standard of manliness due to the purposelessness of masculinity in modern, productive society. I once read that one theorized reason for a higher suicide rate among men is the difficulty of fulfilling the above. A man is what his culture makes him; just like a woman, christian, american, ect... Hope that makes sense.
I apologize, but that is false. Masculinity varies from culture to culture, which is true but the concepts of masculinity and femininity are biologically ingrained into us. Not the specific concepts of course; no one is born believing they must drink beer, screw lots of women and drink lots of beer to be a man, however men are fundamentally different than women. Look down and tell me we aren't. This is not bad, neither sex is better or superior or what have you. Emotions are not gender-specific, but how these emotions are expressed and dealt with DOES vary from gender to gender. However, the differences between gender are minimal compared to the differences between individuals in those genders. A man is what his biology makes him, IN ADDITION to what his culture makes him. Certain aspects of maleness are inescapable. Testosterone, pissing while standing up, you know stuff like that.
I personally think that what makes a man a "man" is simply his organs, sexual and otherwise. Personally, I think this thread should be titled, "what society expects of a man", which is an entirely complex discussion which really can have no correct answer as the debate would be based entirely on opinion.
Very few women make it as senior judges here because of how society was 35-40 years ago when they were called to the Bar. It's not indicative of modern society so much as it is of a past age. Women now outnumber men in being called to the Bar of England and Wales, and in a few years' time women will be far more prevalent in positions of authority within the legal system. Just back in the late '60s and early '70s when today's senior judges were called to the Bar women simply didn't enter the legal profession in the way they did now. That women are actually becoming more represented on the judiciary proves that we are looking now at a meritocracy, unlike how it used to be. Sorry for the off-topic, I just felt I needed to qualify that statement. Although you are right, and as things are women and ethnic minorities are under-represented in the judiciary.
As time passes on this earth we still encounter new things, we havent seen it all so to speak. In some cases we have witnessed the blurring of the lines between biologically female and male, the physiological makeup alone cannot make a sapien male or female. It does however help to have all the parts necessary What I think affects our views of men is society, the environment around us and how we are influenced makes a man. It shapes our view of what we expect 'men' to be, some cultures will have different opinions of what a 'real man' embodies. There are however some striking similarities between cultures that I propose to you. Men are simply not born men, they will in some cultures and even to a degree in our own culture, have to undergo a rite of passage into manhood. Im sure you can think of some cases where a boy comes out a man through some rite. There are some similarities between the cultures as to our expectations of what a man should be or what a man is. Valuing physical prowess to provide food, fathering children, fighting for your clan, tribe or nation, are just a few examples. What I'm saying is that the environment around us shapes what we think men are supposed to be, nurture versus nature so to speak. If you think about all the different people in your life that you know, think about how they were raised, what they were taught, it becomes increasingly apparent that their different experiences can make who they are. With all that being said, we will probably never agree on exactly what will make a man, while I was in the army (with a few exceptions) we didnt care what race, color or creed someone was, we cared about if they could do their job and if they would have your back in a pinch. There were only a few women in my company and they did their jobs just fine. When we came back from overseas we were still friends, we still had each others backs if there were problems at home or otherwise. Im not saying that hardship alone makes men, it sure does build on camaraderie Anyways I'm reminded of a movie you may know it, here is a quote: Thanks all
Have you seen the story where three decent sized security guards watch as a girl has her face stomped on after being beaten unconscious. After watching this, I thought of this thread. To me, a man has at least one more responsibility than a woman, and doing something in that situation would be it. This was the most unmanly thing I’ve ever seen. I’ve noticed that when I think about it academically, I don’t see much different between the sexes. But in real situations, I think there are differences.
