What to do when nobody likes the kind of characters you love to write?

So, you're looking for a Villain Protagonist, relatable motivations, clever manipulations, and large scale plans?

I would recommend that you watch The Godfather I and II. Not SciFi/Fantasy, but a very good look at what happens when a man of a high-upper-class resources worries that his family is in danger and runs schemes across the country to protect them by Any. Means. Necessary. "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer" is a quote specifically from these movies, and by the middle of the second I had completely lost track of which conflicting stories the Mafia patriarch had told which people.

Most importantly: the fact that characters like Don Corleone, Light Yagami, Walter White, and Francis Underwood are popular in a lot of mediums except yours is a good thing, because that means that as desperate as you are to find a story that uses your favorite medium and favorite characters, imagine how desperate the rest of the "like what you like" audience must be

 

Yeah, but that is precisely why I am so worried, the fact that so few characters like the kind I enjoy exist in the only medium I am capable of producing a story in. If I was artistically skilled or had the personal wealth to hire an artist I would just do that and call it a day. However, as it stands I have neither the art skill nor personal wealth to turn my ideas into a comic, manga, anime or cartoon. I do have the skill to script write, but I don't want to go that route because in film and television the one who has the real power over the story and how it is told is the director, not the writer. Thus my only option is to turn my ideas into pure text narratives, and in that medium there is an utter dearth of villain protagonists. In fact, most of the well-known ones come from of all things plays, which while they are now read as texts where initially written to be seen, not read.

There is so few "villain protagonists" outside of visual-based media that it worries me in the sense I don't think I'll be able to share my ideas with anybody because the only way to share my stories would be to publish, and the lack of villain protagonists in literature makes me worry no publisher would ever touch such a thing. Before you say "self-publishing" that is not an option for me in any way for the exact same reason hiring an artist to turn my ideas into a comic/manga is not: it takes too much money, and money for me is something that is in short supply.

So yeah, I suppose my fear is not that nobody will like my protagonists. Your responses here have all assured me there are definitely people out there who would enjoy the kind of stories I write. Instead, I should say my fear is that PUBLISHERS will not like my protagonists, and that since I am simply not in a financial position to self publish I'll have no way to ever get my stories shared with the rest of the world.

(Also please note I am not looking to live off my writing. I am a college student and have other carrier aspirations. I write and seek to publish solely because publishing is the best way to share my stories with a larger audience at minimal monetary expense to me. I write to share my stories and characters with the world, not to make a living. Just thought I'd let you all know since I keep talking about money as a barrier and don't want to give the impression that I am some kind of "starving artist" that is bitter over their financial situation and trying to get sympathy.)

 

@Crimson Dragon - read Ian Graham's fantasy novel Monument. It's an example of the sort of thing you're talking about, where the main character is utterly despicable. It was published by a mainstream publisher. In fact, it was Graham's first novel, so you don't even have to be established to do this sort of thing.

The thing is, Graham did it well. If you write an excellent book along the lines you're talking about, I don't think publishers will reject it merely because of the nature of the main character.

 

Yes, but he is a British author where I am based in the United States. Not sure if that matters or not, but it could be an issue. Perhaps English publishers are more open to such things then American ones are. Also, from the descriptions of it I saw, it seems his protagonist is not evil but rather just uncharismatic and selfish. He is still out to "save" the world, even if it is against his will, whereas my stories tend to be about characters out to dominate or otherwise change the world in ways that would be anything but "saving" it. Of course, I could be wrong since I never read the book, so take this for what it's worth which isn't much. It does sound interesting despite, though. So I'll be sure to check it out.

 

I don't think so. His novel was published in the U.S. by Ace. And if you look at other fantasy writers, you'll see a lot of less than savory characters as main characters. Ever read Joe Abercrombie's Best Served Cold? Murcatto isn't exactly a paragon of virtue or someone to look up to.

Publishers and readers alike will go for this thing if it is done well, whether in the U.S. or the UK.

 

Ok, that is good to know. Odd question for you. Could you recommend me a fantasy, sci-fi or science-fantasy book with a protagonist similar to the kind I have been describing? I don't mean a character who is just unlikable and a "bad guy." I mean a protagonist that is a "bad guy," but also a scheming master-manipulator with a clearly megalomaniacal goal, such as world domination or something equally grand. If such a thing exists in the literary world, as you seem to be implying, I would love to read it just so I can get an idea of how other writers tackle the archetype.

 

I don't know about anything exactly on point. I'm thinking more along the lines of protagonists who are unlikable and/or unreliable, but who still engage the readers so that they're willing to read the story. A great non-fantasy example of this is Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita.

I'll have to think on it a bit further. I have so many fantasy and science fiction books, and maybe there is something in my collection that fits what you're talking about. I think the same general principles apply either way, however, which is that you just have to make the book interesting and engaging to the reader, and if you do that well they'll go along for the ride.

 

I wouldn't worry about the publisher at this point. If that's what inspires you, if that's the story that's bubbling inside you, just write it. Even if you wrote a YA dystopia with vampires, there's no guarantee it'll be published. It's totally cool to ask about this, of course, just don't let these doubts work as an excuse to procrastinate and not write the story/character

 

Ironically enough while I do not work exclusively in YA I have some YA concepts, and one of those is in fact a YA dystopia with supernatural elements that include undead(No vamps, though). It's just that instead of following the teenage rebel fighting for freedom it follows the selfish, manipulative, power-hungry teenage heir of the corrupt megacorp that is responsible for making the world a dystopia in the first place. Yeah, weird viewpoint for a YA story, I know. I just like my bad guys and I find young villains to be equally entertaining to write as adult ones. They can be enjoyable because you can write their "start of darkness" or explore their journey to power while established, adult villains usually already have their evil empire/corporation/cult/crime syndicate/whatever and are a bit more difficult(but still just as fun) to work with as a result.

 

It's not going to be very fun for the reader if the MC knows everything that's going to happen, has all the tools, knows all the tricks. For a start, how would you write that without exhaustive exposition?

I think you can do it by letting the main character stumble through the traps and snares of the Antagonist, all while revealing more and more and more about his character. You can tell it from the protagonists perspective while making the antagonist the MC.

 

I don't want to do that, though, because I still have to spend the bulk of my time writing with the exact kind of character I dislike: the typical unintelligent heroic protagonist, which writing bores me to tears. I want to write a villain protagonist because I want to most of my time with the villain. That's the character I enjoy writing the best and want to spend most of my time with. So while your idea certainly does make for an interesting story, Jack, it's not what I'm looking to do. It's not so much that that I want to write a "the bad guy wins" story, it's more that I want to write a story where most of the time is spent with the villain, exploring his character, watching him develop and seeing his sinister plans come to fruition.

As for the story getting "boring" because you know the villain's tricks and he has lots of power and resources at his command, that is entirely dependent on the narrative in question. First of all, a LOT of my stories follow villains as they rise to power, rather then what they do when they have it. When you have a villain who is trying to obtain the evil empire rather then one who already rules it, you just don't have the issue you mentioned since they don't have all those resources yet; they are working to get them. Likewise, my stories which have the villain already in a position of absolute power usually pit him against a highly dangerous and competent threat to that power, many of which are actually more dangerous/powerful the villain himself.

Thus, such stories become less like watching a dictator brutalize his helpless people on the nightly news and more like watching Richard III as he backstabs and manipulates his way to the crown. The story becomes entertaining because of the sheer scale of what the villain wishes to accomplish; the reader is drawn to continue reading to see if the protagonist can actually pull off such a grand and crazy scheme despite how impossible it may seem for them to succeed. In may ways it's like a "reverse who-done it" story, the narrative is engaging much like a who-done-it in the sense that the reader wants to know if the villain can pull off the "perfect crime." The main difference here is that instead of mystery being the driving force of interest in the story it's seeing if the protagonist really can overcome odds that seem insurmountable, even for one of his resources. It that sense my stories are very much a dark reflection of typical fantasy/SF with heroic protagonists who readers follow to see if they can overcome impossible odds, except instead of doing it for relatively normal reasons and using physical and/or supernatural/magical/technological might they do it for selfish and/or crazy reasons and with smarts and charisma; scheming, manipulation, power plays etc... are their stock and trade; not direct conflict.(Though this still does inevitably come up from time to time when no alternatives exist for the protagonist or he just REALLY needs to off somebody and can't trust or get somebody else to do it effectively.)

So yeah, while I thank you for your ideas Jack, I know what I want to write and it is an actual villain protagonist. I appreciate your help, though. Anyway...if anybody else has ideas, comments or advice on villain protagonists and my predicament regarding them feel free to post! I am also still looking for examples of written works that feature villain protagonists.

 

I'd suggest writing a reverse-type story.

Explanation: You stay as the villain, and have the hero seem as the villain to your character because they keep interfering, when we as the audience know it's the other way around. Admittedly, i have not read books like this, but i think it would make a very interesting story. You can also do many different things with this -the possibilities are endless.

Such as writing an even bigger baddy to go head-to-head with ur char.... what would happen if two evil minds clashed and neither one knew what the other would do next despite all their calculations? *evil chuckle*

 

The Death Gate Cycle by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman, has Haplo as a protagonist villain. - He gets sent into four different worlds to cause as much chaos as he can, so that his master can conquer them in the future.
Technically he's chief henchman, rather than lead megalomaniac, but he's mostly creating his schemes off his own back and he genuinely wants his masters goals to succeed, rather than acting out of fear.
Later on in the series the good/evil line becomes rather ambiguous, but the first couple of books don't feel to far off what you're talking about.

 

Thanks for the heads up! I will have to check out that series, even the later books since, while they may not be a model of another author's take on what I like to write they still sound amusing. If anybody else knows of similar written works with villain protagonists I'd love to hear more!

 

Hi, Crimson Dragon,

Can I suggest that you take a look at Michael Moorcock's 'Elric' books? The main character is a debauched prince of a decadent people who uses/is used by a sentient soul eating sword. It's a long (too long) time since I read them, but Elric certainly has designs on his world, serves the lord of Chaos, summons demons, takes copious amounts of drugs, deals in dark magic... the list goes on. He was always considered an 'anti-hero' (take that as you will) rather than an outright villain but from memory he seems to very much fit your bill. The stories were of the 'sword and sorcery' variety, if that helps. Think a skinny, weakling, highly intelligent, sardonic and often utterly selfish alternative to Conan.

You might also consider the popularity of George RR Martin's 'Game of Thrones'. Very few characters are typical hero types and many are outright despicable. I have only seen the TV show and so cannot comment beyond that, but taken as a whole, the saga is wildly popular. People almost certainly want to read the type of characters you seem to be talking about. I'm sorry if I've misunderstood your intent.

As to the costs of self-publishing you mentioned, there are a number of free or very low cost ways to share your stories. If you simply would like to 'get your story out there', there are many options, including but not limited to blogs, free websites, story-sharing websites. A small amount of research will illustrate that your options are open in this regard.

I hope you find the confidence to move forward with your ideas, as you seem passionate about them. Ultimately, what's the worst that could happen (cue Doctor Pepper music)? In a worst case scenario, you end up with a story you enjoy reading yourself and you have the pleasure of having produced something few others will ever manage to achieve. Best of luck and please enjoy whatever you do (and read Elric!)

Andy

 

Thanks, but purely internet-based sharing of stories is simply not an option at all for me, for reasons too numerous to list and explain right now. However, internet-based sharing of stories has one of the same, fundamental issues that self-publishing does for me(cost, while the primary issue with self-publishing, is not the only issue with it for me.) as well as another fundamental issue that makes it problematic in my eyes, and that's all I care to say about it right now. If your curious as to why I am against it feel free to PM me and when I am feeling more in the mood I will discuss at length why sharing via the net is something I am very leery about.

However, enough on that. I will say that the series you mentioned sounds quite enjoyable to me, and I will have to check it out. Though that brings up an interesting discussion point I must talk about now. Where exactly is the line between "villain progatonist" and "anti-hero" drawn? I always thought of anti heroes as being individuals who while deeply flawed and anything but "nice guys" still have a heart of gold deep down somewhere and/or exhibit, at least in some cases, heroic qualities. They either have generally heroic goals but pursue them in less then heroic means or are selfish but still care about other people and exhibit empathy on at least a semi-regular basis. They may be mean, cruel or even amoral, but they still care about others in some way, even if they lie, cheat, kill, steal or do other "bad" things in the name of their goals. Han Solo and Sasuke Uchiha(before he turns totally to the dark side) are examples of "anti-heroes" in my mind while Light Yagami and Richard III would be examples of villain protagonists.

Thus, seeing the term "anti-hero" given to a totally selfish character who seemingly doesn't have a heart of gold somewhere beneath all that darkness makes me wonder just what the line is between "anti-hero" and "villain protagonist" is and whether or not a wholly selfish megalomaniac who wants something like world domination or godhood could potentially be labeled an "anti-hero" from at least a marketing to publishers standpoint? I ask this because label of "anti-hero" is likely to be far less scary to publishers than "villain protagonist." So, if a story with a truly evil and selfish villain protagonist can be reasonably marketed to publishers as one about an "anti-hero" than my main issue(Which is the fear that no publisher would touch a story with a "villain protagonist.") could be largely alleviated.

 

Hello again, Crimson Dragon

As to your choice of publishing route, you must absolutely pursue what you feel to be right for you. I was only offering the ideas re. 'free' options as you mentioned a desire to simply share your stories. I must have misunderstood and I apologise.

As to 'anti-hero' vs. 'villain protagonist', I suspect such definitions may eventually be the domain of marketing people. Not that I am debating your definitions of the terms. All I would say is that sometimes these terms can trip us up a little; they don't always work as neatly as we might like. It's the same with music. Labels give way to sub-labels etc. until no one can agree what constitutes a particular type. I suppose I'm just thinking perhaps you should write the story and character you wish to write, do the very best job you can, and let the work speak for itself. As others have suggested already, it seems unlikely that publishers will be put off solely on the basis of your main character's 'nature'.
You seem to have a very clear idea as to what you do and don't want to do and it would seem you would be deeply unhappy working in any other way. Follow your heart, if that doesn't sound too cheesy.
Please let us know how you get on

Andy

 

People seem to have a lack of taste, I find, for heroes who have many villainous character traits, but are heroes regardless. The ones that may seem evil, but are angels when compared with guys like Hitler or Jeffry dahmer. I still dont see how Batman is an anti-hero.

 

I do have a desire to just share my stories, yes, but reaching people on the internet requires either a large web of online contacts or money to pay for advertising on other websites, neither of which are resources I have. I want my stories to reach as large an audience as they possibly can given the resources I have, and since I lack the things needed to reach the size audience I want to through online means, traditional, non-online publishing is my best route for me in my current situation.(However, if my financial situation changes in the future, which is highly likely at the moment, then this may change dramatically.) I'm not looking for massive J.K. Rowling level of fame, mind you, but I want more then like five friends or a single small web community to read my work and if it was a purely online affair that's about all I could get to actually read it given the resources I have.

 

Gritty, but true. What is life?

 

I like trying to make my 'villains' realistic, and to have the reader relate to them. I don't like having a set of good guys and bad guys. I like bad guys who are doing what they do for what they perceive to be good causes.

 

• There is absolutely nothing in the literary world that I know of with the kind of MCs I enjoy writing

Okay, you're a publisher, and you know this. Along comes your query. The idea might make you say, "Let's take a look," but since you're reading with the attitude, "Will the first three pages of this, by themselves, interest a reader enough to pay for it?" You need to take that into account. And the idea of selling it directly, by self publishing, runs into the same problem. Bore or confuse a reader for a line. Make them dislike your character for a line. Do either while they're deciding to buy or say no and the answer is no.

You also need to think about the reader's viewpoint. If the man is unlikeable, manipulative, but does good, on the whole, the reader may hang in there hoping for redemption. Rumpelstiltskin, in the TV show Once Upon a Time, is a miserable bastard, vindictive, cruel, and thoroughly unlikeable—much of the time. But at the same time he loves his family and has moments when it almost seems he'll be moved to reform, or has. So people find him interesting.

Present the same kind of character who does only harm and people will say no. Any character must have characteristics a reader admires if they're to form an emotional attachment to that character as the protagonist. And that's true if he's the story's protagonist or just that in a given scene.

On the other hand, that same character can make a good antagonist. Place him and your hero in a crucible, and...

 

To the OP: You're definitely not alone. I, too, prefer a story told from the anti-hero/villan POV, however the bad guys I prefer are not the "take over the world" kind. Epic, grandiose goals of that sort bore me, but I do love novels where the protagonist is actually the antagonist, especially when they aren't aware they're bad or evil, it's just their nature/upbringing.

I recently self-pubbed a fantasy novel about two bad guys (an assassin and a thug) being hunted by the good guys. However since the story is told entirely from their POV, by the end of the novel, my beta readers had forgotten they were the villans, and were rooting for them to succeed. Only when taking a step back was it obvious their pursuers had all the right reasons to be hunting them down. That was my intent, and I was happy to know that I could create characters who were amoral, yet still likable by the reader.

I realize this isn't quite what you're looking for, but I wanted to chime in nonetheless given the similar nature of our goals. Best of luck in your writing!

 

I think you should continue with your MC's as villian types. Personally I always favor the villains, especially when the story revolves around them as the MC.