When a character murders a baby...

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by Link the Writer, Oct 22, 2016.

  1. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    There have been countless threads on this site with authors wondering "how far is too far" and struggling with how to make characters sympathetic despite bad acts. I don't think there's anything special about this one, or anything unusual in the range of replies.

    See, for example:

    https://www.writingforums.org/threads/how-far-is-too-far.146521/#post-1454605;

    https://www.writingforums.org/threads/characters-you-dislike.136557/ which opens as a discussion of "characters (or archetypes) who are supposed to be relatable or interesting, or likeable but aren't";

    concerns about making a terrorist bomber sympathetic in https://www.writingforums.org/threads/the-power-and-the-glory-531-words.145826/#post-1447180;

    forgiveability (or not) for rapists in the Middle Ages at https://www.writingforums.org/threads/concern-over-depiction.145061/;

    whether a main character should rape and murder in https://www.writingforums.org/threads/should-he-oh-boy.135918/;

    oral sex between children in https://www.writingforums.org/threads/how-young-is-too-young.33872/#post-670630, with one response: "I would put down the book immediately and most probably never read anything by the same author again."​

    And lots of other threads. Assuming that people are reacting poorly to a fictional character murdering a baby only because the baby is white? I think you're leaping to a really negative, and false, conclusion.
     
  2. halisme

    halisme Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,772
    Likes Received:
    1,230
    How about the fact it's a character killing a baby? The race doesn't hold a factor for most.
     
  3. SKeyes

    SKeyes New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2016
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Finland
    Why are you debating race? Try to focus on the actual topic of the thread, please.
     
    matwoolf likes this.
  4. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    15,023
    Likes Received:
    9,676
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    Holy shit, so many replies! Let me answer as much as possible:

    Those are good ideas. I had the image where David bursts into the nursery looking for Amelia, and he sees her yanking the baby from the crib. She pleads for him to stop and think about what he's doing, but David feels he has no choice? The common theme of the story is what liberty means to those deprived of it for various reasons as examined by David and Amelia, Emily (a white woman, one of the major characters), and Aimon 'Amos' Garnier (a blind French kid). Maybe the baby is disabled/has a severe deformity that the family was keeping secret? David could recall how his best friend, Amos, has to struggle in a world that sees him as nothing more than a stupid blind runt, a beggar, etc. and thinks, "That's no future I want for this baby. I'm saving it from the hell Amos went through." The baby, as you said, becomes a symbol for a better future for all children.

    So he and Amelia are at a standoff with the baby in her arms. A little too Harry Potter-ish, I know, but that was the idea.


    That's an idea. The baby has severe problems that David realizes that will do her in. Maybe in his mind, he's mercy killing her.


    Wouldn't that take the blame from David? He's fighting for a future he believes is the correct one, him killing the baby is sort of the point-of-no-return for him; he can't go back after this. If someone else axed the baby, then there's no blood on David's hands.


    Emotional frenzy is what David would be undergoing. You're absolutely correct, if he just stood there looking at the baby, considered it, then throttled her, then there goes any chance of sympathy for him. He's a monster, not a somewhat good person who flipped, went out on a psychotic ragefest and did something heinous and unspeakable.

    I agree. @Iain Sparrow , I didn't make this thread to ask whether people would be shocked if it were a white character murdering a black baby. Of course they would -- any sensible, decent person would. It's damned baby! Who cares if the baby were white, black, brown, or Asian. If someone murdered that baby, I'd recommend executing the bastard Old Wild West style. I was asking more of how I could make David even the slightest bit sympathetic after what he did. But yeah, after all the shit he's seen, he probably would want to conclude that the owners are nothing more than inhumane animals and should die accordingly. He doesn't even know the baby exists until the raid.

    That's exactly my intent. Amelia does want a better future, a better life for herself and her family/people, but when she sees David going over into berserker-mode territory and gunning after the baby, that's when she says, "Fuck this" and tries to protect Lucy from her former friend. The lines you wrote is very fitting for her, let me include another one: "Are you a damned lunatic!? Think about what Amos would feel if he found out? He's your friend. He's saved your life countless times; he loves you like a brother. Why would you do this?! Don't kill her!"

    If David is still pissed (and he's a hot-blooded character), he might not want to listen to her. He might even try to attack her. At the risk of ripping off the core backstory of Harry Potter, she pleads for mercy and when that doesn't work, she tries to fight him off while grabbing the baby and running. Or maybe her brother -- who is also not onboard with the whole 'killing a baby' thing fights David off while she snatches the infant and runs.


    That's the key thing I need to be cautious about. Leading a revolt against your oppressors is one thing; killing a small infant who had done nothing to you? That's a whole different universe.

    What if David's philosophy of a better life had been fermenting in his head for quite some time, simmering along with his anger at his oppressors. Then, one day, he sees one more injustice done that just makes him snap. Completely and utterly snap. He takes an axe and a knife and that night, with an accomplice, starts stabbing and hacking away at the oppressors -- even killing the family dog when it attempted to bite him. Amelia hears the commotion and her first instincts are, "I need to get Lucy!" so she rushes to the nursery and takes the baby in her arms. Then she's cornered by David, covered in blood. They have an argument about what he's doing, he tells her to give HIM the baby. She tries to remind him of his best friends who wouldn't want him doing this but he attacks her. A scuffle happens and the baby falls on the floor head first. Maybe this snaps David out of his frenzy for just a moment, he sees clearly what he's done to the baby.

    Hmm...
     
  5. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2016
    Messages:
    2,521
    Likes Received:
    4,054
    I may be in the .000000001%, but depending on the context I could empathize if not sympathize with a character who killed a baby. Personally I'd rather read a book about war that takes a raw. honest look at what's happened historically in times of war than something sanitized because it'll offend readers.

    I think this it what I was talking about in the "Tell the truth" Stephen King thread - if a character's truth is that the horrors of slavery could drive him to infanticide, then that's what I'd write. You can always take it out or change it during the editing process if within the overall context of the story it seems to make his character irredeemable.

    But hey, one of my MC's is an assassin who took out (among many other people) a woman quite far into her pregnancy, and he still gets a HEA, so I may be biased.
     
    izzybot and Iain Sparrow like this.
  6. Iain Sparrow

    Iain Sparrow Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Messages:
    1,107
    Likes Received:
    1,062
    I think that's it.
    There are two books by Stephen King that standout for me, 'The Body' (inspired the movie Stand By Me), and 'The Regulators'. Though King's work is fantasy you'll always find a bitter sweet honesty in his writing.
    It also dovetails into my assertion that we have a natural inclination to find certain things more horrifying than others. It sometimes isn't very attractive or pleasant to think about, or even rational, but we put a premium on an infant white girl that we don't have for an infant black child. Stephen King and other talented writers know how to exploit our own ugly flawed nature, and tell a story that sticks to the ribs of the reader.
     
  7. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2015
    Messages:
    2,595
    Likes Received:
    3,186
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    Speak for yourself, dude.
     
  8. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    Please don't include me in your "we".
     
  9. Pauline

    Pauline Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2016
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    70
    I never said not to have a character murder a baby. I get its fiction. I merely answered the op's question. If people think they could sympathize, thats their opinion. But I can't see that as something that wouldn't put readers and publishers off.
     
  10. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    15,023
    Likes Received:
    9,676
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    OK, should I simply not have brought up the fact that David was mix-raced and his supposed victim was the white infant of his oppressors? Are you trying to argue that the reaction wouldn't be the same if he were killing a random black baby instead? The only reason I did that was to providing some context beyond ‘some sick fuck decides to knife a baby for reasons, how would you all feel about him?’

    I can absolutely see how this would be a huge turn-off if they read about a character who was supposed to be one of the good guys going that far off the deep end and murder a small infant in her crib. The idea of David going on a murderous rampage killing everyone indiscriminately is harrowing enough, but murdering an infant would send him straight from ‘sympathetic hero who is doing something wrong in a fit of passionate rage’ to ‘someone please kill this sick, demented fuck.’

    Maybe instead of David deciding to murder the baby, he catches someone else in the act and kills them and absconds with the baby. Maybe he and Amelia both agree on this one aspect and slip away unnoticed with the baby while the house burnt? That might make it more easier for readers to stand David and still plausibly consider rooting for him.

    If David wound up killing the baby, he wouldn't do it with intent. It would be either by accident or unintentional casualty (he learns the baby died during the revolt and feels responsible for it.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2016
  11. compmend

    compmend New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2016
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    1
    What if David sets the house ablaze or another member of the revolution and the baby is trapped in a position where it is impossible to reach it. Maybe he tries but, a roof beam collapse for instance keeps him from succeeding. As he stands there watching the flames engulf the room, he struggles with the idea that this child is going to die a horrible death by fire, its cries are tearing him apart, so pulling out his flint-lock he takes aim and in an act of mercy decides to end its suffering. Tears flow down his face at the thought, but, it has to be done. With trembling hands he squeezes the trigger and the child's life is extinguished.
     
    Link the Writer likes this.
  12. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    Messages:
    6,631
    Likes Received:
    10,135
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    If I see this as opus, sweeping saga - then I can follow the journey of the guy who hacked the baby - 'becomes president' - for example - among the many other stories and conclusions.

    On the other hand asking me to root for this guy from a more rooted POV - is a more difficult ask...

    ...

    Anyway, monster ;) - give it a splash of sophistication - have the slave-childminder swap babies that one night. Your MC has in fact murdered a half-white/half-black baby in his rage, a baby very much like the child he once was. That'll piss him off.
     
  13. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    Damn - people accuse romance authors of writing soap operas!
     
    Carly Berg and compmend like this.
  14. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Community Volunteer

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    Messages:
    4,406
    Likes Received:
    4,755
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Not true. See this: http://www.preciousdoe.org/history.html

    http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/05/precious.doe/

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/06/us/kansas-city-solves-a-mystery-with-relief-and-chills.html?_r=0

    Everyone in the Greater Kansas City area, black and white, rich and poor, came together and mourned over that little child and did what they could to find and convict her killer. She was killed less than five blocks from where I worked at the time and it still breaks my heart.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2016
  15. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Community Volunteer

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    Messages:
    4,406
    Likes Received:
    4,755
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I'm sorry to hear that. I'll turn and wave in your direction from time to time.
     
  16. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    Hellllooo!!! Hope things are okay down therrrreeee!!!!
     
  17. Sifunkle

    Sifunkle Dis Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2014
    Messages:
    478
    Likes Received:
    586
    Hmm... I'm late to the party and you may have already decided to alter your initial idea into more of an accidental (axe-idental?) death, but my thoughts are still with the original description. Personally I'd feel less sympathy for someone in 'berserker rage' mode (lack of self control is not remotely respectable) than I would for someone who's done something awful but with good intentions (might depend on exactly how misguided those intentions are).

    If you did want to go with the original plan of giving the baby the axe, I think there are two main lines of rationalisation David could go with that might generate sympathy. (Note: rationalisation not justification; might generate sympathy, not will in 100% of readers.)
    1. As @TheWriteWitch originally suggested, have David consider it a mercy killing, i.e. euthanasia. I think in ethical philosophy, there are three branches of euthanasia (voluntary, involuntary, non-voluntary) and there are rational arguments (case dependent) for each. For a baby, you'd be dealing with non-voluntary (as it's not capable of giving informed consent). Basically, you need to outline David's train of thought that leads to the conclusion that it's in the baby's best interest.
      There are probably a few ways you could do that. Horrible diseases, etc have been brought up, but I think that route is far too contrived. WriteWitch's original suggestion is good (mental scarring, growing up in an awful societal position, etc), but looking quite far forward (far enough that the baby would be capable of making it's own choices by that stage). I'd probably go with something shorter term. Maybe David is a decent bloke who's been forced into a desperate situation. He's targeting his specific oppressors and only them; he's not actually racist. He kills as expediently as possible. But he knows that others in his following put far more weight on the racial divide ('us vs them'), would inevitably find the baby if he left it, and would not provide nearly as clean a death.
      'Dying is nothing, but pain is a very serious matter.' - Henry Jacob Bigelow. Basically the lynchpin argument for euthanasia, which many people agree with.
    2. (Depending on its age[/prematurity?]) the baby is too young and undeveloped to be aware of what it's faced with, and will be dead before it can register much pain (sidenote: if the axe is pivotal, decapitation is probably best, or if it's heavy enough, 'complete cranial obliteration' -- sorry to get gory, but that's actually kindest for this circumstance). The death won't mean anything to the baby itself, it's family are already (?) dead... although there are still a few people (Amelia?) who would be personally impacted (and plenty of others who would be impersonally, morally-but-not-necessarily-ethically opposed). So I suppose the major issue that remains is that David has taken away the potential the baby may have had... but then, if you combine this with point 1 above, maybe there wasn't going to be much potential...
      Similar ethical ideas to the abortion debate, or whether it's murder if someone's responsible for a miscarriage, etc.
    Heavy stuff: euthanasia and abortion! Could even be a thematic exploration if you were so inclined (although I suspect you're not; seems this is only a small part of your overall plot).

    I agree with everyone who's said that depicting him stewing over it (before and after) will increase sympathy. IMO particularly if he's thrown for a loop trying to decide what to do at the time, and only making the decision because he has to (e.g. David knows that other, more brutal, rebels will be along shortly and that the baby's time in his hands will shortly run out). You could perhaps even increase the sympathy if Amelia, etc never comprehend his internal strife (although the reader will have to) and just punish him on the face value of 'You killed a baby --> you're evil'. (But then, this thread has shown that a sizeable section of your potential audience won't delve any deeper than that... the 'black and white morality' crowd presumably won't feel any sympathy.)

    Good luck with it :) And just a disclaimer that none of the above is necessarily how I personally view the issue, just a possibility as to how your fictional character possibly could.
     
    WNP and Link the Writer like this.
  18. Iain Sparrow

    Iain Sparrow Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Messages:
    1,107
    Likes Received:
    1,062
    http://www.newsweek.com/even-babies-discriminate-nurtureshock-excerpt-79233
    But then there's this study that shows even more liberal-minded families are just fooling themselves. The kind of cultural conditioning we're subject to doesn't go away with uplifting words, or because we elected a black President. Unfortunately sitting very young kids down in from of the TV set and having them watch Sesame Street and other culturally diverse entertainment is no substitute for having a heart-to-heart discussion with them about race and ethnic differences.

    We have a color bias, even toddlers show a bias for lighter over darker. It's not the way it should be, it just is.
     
  19. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    So even though you've made yourself aware of all this, done lots of reading and thinking and self-examination, you still only care about white babies being brutally murdered? You don't care about black babies being killed?
     
    Catrin Lewis likes this.
  20. Iain Sparrow

    Iain Sparrow Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Messages:
    1,107
    Likes Received:
    1,062

    Speaking from my own perspective, the line I draw in the sand for when murder is unacceptable occurred before David ever made it to the child's crib.
    In my mind, David showed himself as demented and sick by murdering adults, even slave owners. I can understand the rage, but if he were real I'd count him as evil as those he slaughtered.
     
  21. Iain Sparrow

    Iain Sparrow Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Messages:
    1,107
    Likes Received:
    1,062
    That is not at all what I've said.
    I'm highlighting a color bias that exists in us all. Btw, I live in downtown Jacksonville by choice... predominately black, and not at all like the almost exclusively white suburbs I grew up in. I prefer black people over white. There's a depth to black people that neither I, or most white people have.
     
  22. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    So if you prefer black people, you would be upset if a black baby were killed. But the rest of us aren't as progressive as you are? When you've been saying "we", have you really meant "you"?

    I mean... if you'd come into this thread (or, better yet, started a new one) with a genuine question about unconscious biases and how they may or may not be reflected in our attitudes toward fiction, I'd have been happy to have the discussion with you.

    But that's not what you did. You made an ugly judgment about a lot of people you don't know at all. It's surprised me that we don't seem to have any people of colour commenting on this thread, but you didn't know that was the case before you made your accusation.

    I'm done with this now. I've spent the time to examine my own biases and I work to continue uncovering them. I'm not blind to the prejudices that exist in the world. But to go from that awareness to an assumption that people I've never met wouldn't be upset by seeing a fictional depiction of a black baby being murdered? That's a leap way, way too damn far.
     
    Sifunkle and halisme like this.
  23. Iain Sparrow

    Iain Sparrow Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Messages:
    1,107
    Likes Received:
    1,062
    But I'm not likely any more or less biased towards the color of one's skin than you, or anyone taking part in this thread.
    I think most of you are talking about these things from a distance. Since moving downtown, I can tell you my perspective has changed mightily over the past five years. My perception of those differences between races has matured, but I'm still not color blind.

    Anyhow, it's an interesting topic!;)
     
  24. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    You can think what you want to about other people on this thread, but you have to know you're making wild assumptions. Making really ugly accusations based on those assumptions isn't "interesting", it's offensive.

    I just checked your posting history and it looks like you've got a bit of a history of coming into threads with wild overstatements and then refusing to back down from them, so I'm going to put you on ignore, now. But as a parting tip - I think you'll have more success if you come into conversations more gently, and with fewer ridiculous insults.
     
  25. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    15,023
    Likes Received:
    9,676
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    Well, that escalated quickly. Perhaps this shows me that a scene such as David vs. Baby of his Slave Owners & Amelia the house slave trying to protect it might prove controversial indeed... Hell, David himself might prove to be a controversial character what with him being mixed-race.

    Perhaps this illustrates to me why writing can be a tricky, and powerful thing. No matter how sympathetic I try to make David be before his attack, no matter how tragic I make it (like ‘Oh no, he sees the baby, but can't save her and thus must watch her die and now he feels like he's personally responsible for her death!!’ rather than him knifing her), people will look at it with different lenses and draw their own conclusions. Case in point, the discussion that just came out in this thread of whether or not readers would be sympathetic if the race of baby and David were swapped.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2016

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice