1. gerbil13
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    gerbil13 New Member

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    When bad guys win

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by gerbil13, Oct 31, 2015.

    In stories that end with the bad guy winning what are the pros or cons of ending a protagonist in these ways. (In the case of a heroine who you really want to win.) in terms of her and the antagonist characters development and how could these endings affect plot. Also what reaction in the reader would they cause.
    If she is banished from her homeland,
    forced to convert to her enemies religion,
    Renounces her loyalties and joins her enemy
    Emprisoned to he punished (according to her enemies laws or ideologies)
    Emprisoned to be held for ransom
    Interrogated or tortured
    enslaved in her homeland
    Enslaved in her enemies land
    killed in battle
    executed
    commits suicide

    Thanks for any help
     
  2. ManOrAstroMan
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    ManOrAstroMan Magical Space Detective Contributor

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    Without running through the whole list, most people pick up a book --especially fantasy, which I assume this is--with the understanding that the ending will be, at worst, bittersweet. There's almost an implied contract that the author will finish with a happy(ish) ending. Otherwise, the reader often feels like they invested time and money for nothing. Fantasy especially is about escape, and happy(ish) endings are a part of that. If it were more realistic literary fiction, fine. People expect to be depressed with that. But fantasy should really only have a "villains win" ending if it's part way through a series, and the final novel in the series has the happy ending.
    My two cents.
     
  3. Inks
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    Inks Contributing Member

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    Readers will react in different ways, but the expectation of a happy ending is one that I really do not subscribe to. I am in the distinct minority, but I do enjoy a struggle with no clear "villain". Though heroines are almost always invulnerable with "plot armor" because its too much of a pain to have them being killed or seriously hurt. How many main characters ever die in fantasy anyways?
     
  4. Imaginarily
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    Imaginarily Disparu en Mer Contributor

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    I've heard George RR Martin likes to go on killing sprees. :whistle:

    I have read zero of his books and seen about... four episodes of GoT. Not my cup of tea.
     
  5. Doctore
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    Doctore Member

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    I would say that this depends a lot and I mean A LOT on the plot itself and what is going on in the story. You see, it isn't just about that this or that happens, or even how, but why. If you can show a good reason and make it even poetic in a sense, people won't feel so ripped off or mad if the hero/heroine has to take one in the rear. (Sorry for the bit of raw humor, but it's 4am and I'm out of good jokes) Search for the reason of WHY and try to make sure that it makes sense, and isn't just a quick excuse to achieve the ending that you want. One thing that I hate is to read a good story, then find the ending very disappointed, not because the hero died, but because of the way it happened.
     
  6. ToeKneeBlack
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    ToeKneeBlack Contributing Member Contributor

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    If the heroine is defeated or killed, and the antagonist has apparently won, the reader may feel as though her efforts were in vain.

    If, however, the heroine is defeated or killed, but this also defeats or kills the antagonist, then the reader may feel loss and satisfaction at the same time.

    Not every story needs a happy ending, but don't make it too gloomy.
     
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  7. gerbil13
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    gerbil13 New Member

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    The story is about being conquered and losing your culture, and identity. She and her people are who the story is about and her efforts are in vain so I want to creat sypathy for her. However the antagonist is also a important character. He is surpossed to be likeable and he has the huge task of conquering a mighty kingdom.

    Her realm is the immovable object that has protected the other kingdoms from invaders and his is the unstoppable force that, when he defeats her he will be hailed as the caesar of our time.
     
  8. Inks
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    Inks Contributing Member

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    Do it right and do it well... a great story does not need to have a happy ending, but at least have them willing to die for a reason. Also, you will need to do it in "3rd Omniscient" if you want to generate good sympathy in a complex way, rather than flipping back and forth through "3rd Limited". During actual conflicts, it is practically a requirement to get both sides' views of the unfolding situation.
     
  9. Mallett
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    Mallett New Member

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    You could also let the villain win the battle but make him lose the war. Like he conquers the land in the end but the death of the heroine turns her into a martyr and ignites a large rebellion which eventually ends up killing the new caesar and shattering his empire. That's kind of what Braveheart did. Okay it is grounded on real events, but still.
     

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