When your story sucks

Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by Lea`Brooks, Jun 22, 2015.

  1. The Mad Regent

    The Mad Regent Senior Member

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    Well that's the thing. Does magic define fantasy, or can we create a fantasy by adding or inventing new elements to the category? Now that I think about it, there are very blurred lines distinguishing certain genres.

    Though I feel we are going off topic here, so I'll leave it at that. :)
     
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  2. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Well, one thing I know you should do for sure: Stop saying your story sucks!

    The truth is, even if it's true that it sucks, how on earth does repeating this to yourself actually help you get out of this rut anyway? It doesn't. All it does is discourage you and paralyse you. So stop it. Stop. Now! Your story does not suck. There are aspects that need work, and there are aspects that suck, I'm sure, but those are elements that can be changed. But have some faith in your overall idea and the work you've already done on it.

    Take a step back, and take a deep breath. And if you're stuck, well that's perfectly normal, isn't it? Most of us gets stuck at some point or another. Don't try so hard, and don't push yourself so hard. Take one question at a time - you ask good questions, judging from your OP - so tackle them one at a time. It's ok to take things slow. The story will always be there for you to work on until you're ready to publish it.

    Of course I understand by now you just wanna finish it, so telling you the story will always be there may not sound that great. But think from another perspective - that also means you can take your time. That means you have time to work out the answers and you don't have to have them all at the same time.

    Most of all, rediscover what excited you about the story to begin with. Use that love to drive you onwards.

    And finally, if after a sufficiently long time and having answered all the questions, you realise that something simply isn't working, then maybe it's time to ask the really hard question. Is your set-up/premise workable? Is there something quite fundamental in your original plan that perhaps should be scrapped/changed?

    Simple is usually best. What is complicating your story so much? Are these complications enriching to the story or are they just giving you a headache? Are they interesting complications or are they simply convoluted? Simplify some things and streamline it a little.

    Dig deep and see what's really getting your story stuck. Or is it a simple case of not being able to organise your thoughts or not knowing how to plot? How-to books or talking to an experienced/published writer, or if you have the finances, hiring some sort of editor/writing mentor, might be helpful.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2015
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  3. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    If my story sucked...

    I wouldn't need a girlfriend!
     
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  4. Lea`Brooks

    Lea`Brooks Contributor Contributor

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    I wanted to share something I just did. I'm sure many people will laugh at me.. lol But I'm going to share it anyway.

    I read tarot cards. Rarely for other people though. Mostly just for myself. It helps me to see issues from an outsider's perspective and see what I can do to improve the situation.

    So I decided to use them to help with my story, just to see what came up. See if maybe they could help me to see my story from a different angle. And believe it or not, they didn't.. lol

    I asked several questions. The first being, "Who is my main character?" And I pulled the Star, which is incredibly coincidental, because my MC's name means "star" in Welsh. It also describes her as being a beacon of hope and not judging. And in my story, when I have her turning into a Goddess, she was going to be the Goddess of freedom.

    The second card was for her first friend, and it was the Tower. My tarot book describes this card as a tree that was lovingly planted. It grew and grew over the years. The birds nested in its branches. Men and women laid beneath its shade. But then Mother Nature decided to get rid of it, so she struck the tree down with a bolt. The tree seared white hot and splintered. The earth trembled from the roar. This perfectly describes one of the versions I created for the Bad Guy that my MC falls in love with. He was a God, either made by the other Gods or a noble mortal chosen by the Gods to be one of them, I haven't decided which. He was a loved God by everyone. So he wanted to replace Mother Nature as "Ruler" of the Gods. Mother Nature got mad, and either framed him for some unforgivable crime, or just banished him entirely. He becomes angry and vengeful, determined to take down Mother Nature for the injustice.

    The next two cards were for my MC's other two friends. Again, I pulled perfect descriptions of characters that I had created. Ochen (hard-headed, loyal, reckless) and Echo (spiritual, knowledgeable, and determined).

    The next few cards were about theme and the progression of the story. The theme came out to be making choices. The beginning of the story was reaping rewards. The first catastrophe was those who have vs. those who have not. The second catastrophe suggested a person traveling, surrounded by guardians. The third catastrophe was a women riding a lion, looking off a cliff at all the subjects who worship her and will follow her no matter what. And the end was a double-edged sword. It can either be swung with justice or rage.


    All in all, whether its coincidence or me just reading into what I wanted to see, it followed pretty much the idea I had in mind, with a few changes. My MC would be become queen. I had an idea of woman being mad at MC because MC was chosen and not her (kind of like the "those who have vs. have not" card), thus she tried to kill MC and failed. Then she is either put to death or exiled. Then I wanted to have someone take over the palace, forcing my MC and her friends to run (like the "person traveling, surrounded by guardians" card) to the exiled land. Then at the exiled land, MC would convince all the people living there to join her in taking back their country (like the "looking down at her subjects" card). They'd march on the palace and take it back. But then she'd have to decide what to do with the Bad Guys, whether to save them or kill them (like the "double-edged sword" card).

    If I do it that way, I'd still have to figure out the Bad Guy....

    And now my brain isn't working again... -_- I give up for today. Thanks for all your suggestions, folks. I'm sure it'll help eventually. lol
     
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  5. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    You are a bad man.
     
  6. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    @Lea`Brooks

    I believe there are numerous solutions to your problem. Among those suggested, Jannerts sounds like probably the best. You take your standard fantasy trope, and you twist it somewhere, either beginning, middle, or end or some variation. If you want to maintain your "Mary sue" style, probably go toward middle or end. Something unexpected happens, like the man she's in love with dies or the city is swallowed by the sea, or (still cliche but more interesting) she is destined to rise to power but also die or turn evil or something. More interesting is if you twist the beginning. Maybe she lost an eye or a limb as a child, you get it.

    But I think there is an even easier solution to the problem, and all the successful cliche fantasy out there supports this theory. Ever get stuck arguing something you don't even really agree with (happens to some of us here all the time)? Instead of throwing in the towel, you keep going. You purposely ignore certain facts and try to word your defense to make it sound as good as possible. You know it's stupid but you're fueled by pride? IT's essentially acting but it works.

    Look at Inception. It took a year of convincing for me to finally admit that probably a "dream within a dream" actually makes absolutely no sense. But that didn't stop me from hailing that movie a masterpiece, or spending all night sitting by the computer trying to figure out the film after the first time I saw it. That didn't stop me from gasping with the entire rest of the audience in the theatre. I ate that BS hook like and sinker and I would do it again. With enough conviction, anything works, be it something ridiculous or cliche. It's up to you and the fire you feel within.
     
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  7. sprirj

    sprirj Senior Member

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    I'd start by answering some of your questions. Pick all the worst situations for your mc. Forget what you have written and plan this book. List the pros and cons of your story. Then rewrite with only the pros. Remove the cons entirely, be it a character or a chapter.
     
  8. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    If I understand it right, your advice seems to be: "Just go on ahead and write it regardless of how stupid or clichéd it sounds"?

    Not bad advice either. :) After all, there's a chunk of people who just want to read 'comfortable' fantasy as it were so the question to ask yourself, @Lea`Brooks, is, 'what is your target audience'.

    Seriously, what is your target audience because 'readers' is so vague that it's like walking through a thick fog blindfolded, groping desperately for something.

    Some readers do want high-brow literature, the type that redefines the genre, the serious 'philosophy' type literature.

    Others want a more laid back, easy-to-read literature. It's not groundbreaking or anything, it's not the book that defined all books. It's just a fun, pleasurable ride while it lasts. Even memorable. Some of the most memorable stories that are locked into my brain are the generic 'save the world' plots. Boil 'em down, that's what you get but the way the creators played with the common tropes and themes made me go, 'Wow, I didn't consider this!'

    So, do you just want to entertain people or are you trying to define the literary genre and write 'deep, philosophical' type literature?
     
  9. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    iornically, when worded that way, I hate it! See, worded your way is too negative. It's like saying "don't forget to jump" instead of "remember to jump."

    Something that is bad but similar is cliche. Something that is good but similar is classic. That show True Detective is a year old and I consider it to be classic modern detective television. Everything about that show is a cliche. Its macho. It's Deep South. It follows cult murders. Even the identity of the murderer is cliche. But the acting is bar none. The dialogue is top notch. Most importantly it is COHESIVE. That means all the cliche elements work in tandem.

    Of all the wish fullfillment, girl is special, has cheesy romance and rises to power type stories, one will stand above them all. If that's what you want to write, write it. But don't write it "even though it's cliche." You write because it's going to be the CLASSIC version of that cliche.

    It's like going up to a girl and offering to buy her a drink. This might not be the greatest pickup strategy anymore if you're just aome random joe. But if you're [insert favorite male Hollywood actor here] doing it, it becomes classic, not trite.

    Being different is only one way to be successful. One can also be better.

    Better in terms of story means several things. It means memorable dialogue. Perfect descriptions. Perfect pace. Constant suspense. Etc etc etc. Why is wheel of time more popular than all the other novels just like it? Because the main protagonist has not one, but THREE beautiful women in love with him. That's taking wish fullfilment cliche by the balls. George rr Martin does it too with Danaerys and Jon Snow, but he cleverly hides it with other more interesting characters.

    So no, don't write something despite it being cliche. Own your cliches and make them classic.
     
  10. The Mad Regent

    The Mad Regent Senior Member

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    First season of True Detective is one of my favourite series. New season starts tonight apparently. :cheerleader:

    Edit: What! Wait. It was last night. Awesome. Watching material.
     
  11. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    I'm not incredibly excited. The cast of season one were special.
     
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  12. The Mad Regent

    The Mad Regent Senior Member

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    Yeah, I know what you mean.

    I'm not sure if season 2 will be quite as good.
     
  13. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Read the reviews.
     
  14. The Mad Regent

    The Mad Regent Senior Member

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    Don't need critics. I'm about to watch. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2015
  15. Aaron DC

    Aaron DC Contributor Contributor

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    You could make your MC the first god in existence that is in fact mortal? And explore the implications of this?
     
  16. Aaron DC

    Aaron DC Contributor Contributor

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    Oh yes I am a big advocate of managing self-talk and massaging the message to something productive and proactive.

    Instead of "my story sucks", the following may be true statements, but are far more helpful in directing your focus:
    • my story needs work
    • my story can only get better
    • my story has a lot of potential
    • my story could use some help / input / CPR
    • etc
     
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  17. RevGeo

    RevGeo Member

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    Maybe you should worry less about writing and concentrate on telling a story. Never forget that story telling was originally a sitting-by-the-fire-and telling a compelling tale - thing. It wasn't about stunning prose or cool metaphors; those are the icing on the cake. Tell the story first and then write it.
    Can you tell a joke? Comedians say there is no such thing as a new joke, just a new way of telling an old one. You know the punch line, right? You can come up with a zillion variations of the set-up and then hit them with the old punch line. George Burns was a master at that. Telling a good story is no different.
    I've spent a lot of years writing songs - some good, some not so good. Merle Travis, one of the finest song writers (and guitarists) America has ever known, once said "Write the last line of your song first; then you'll know where you're headed." I think that advice can apply to all sorts of writing.
     
  18. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    I love that.
     
  19. drifter265

    drifter265 Banned

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    No story sucks. I'm pretty sure there's an eight year old somewhere on the internet who I had read written a pretty acclaimed novel. So if she can do it, you can do it. And if this story is something you think you're really passionate about then there is a good story in there somewhere; you just have to create the feeling you feel about it and put it into words - hahaha if it were ever so that easy.

    I read that you got to like chapter 6 and just didn't know where to go next. Do you know how the story ends? If you look at almost every story - be that a tv show, a movie, or a novel - an ending is clearly established or at least an ambiguous ending between two choices. Mad Men - does Don Draper end up happy or not? Breaking Bad - does Walt become the kingpin of the meth business or does he die? Lord of the Rings - does the ring get destroyed or not? Once you know your ending, that one story goal that will define your story, then everything before it will just be buildup towards that. If you start at the ending, you then start asking yourself the right questions, like why is my protagonist doing this? Why is the antagonist doing this? And you start laying out the groundwork for what your story NEEDS and then you can start adding into things what you WANT. But you can't start with what you want in a story like when you're writing the first few chapters because then you'll come to a stop like you did because it's either lacking a concise goal or you either have too many.

    That's all I have. Hope this helped...
     
  20. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    That's kind of dismissing the whole notion that writing well is actually hard and only a handful of people are realistically capable. The amount of shit I've read all over the net from aspiring writers is depressing. Most people, most people, can't write for shit. I'm still trying to determine if I'm not one of them. If everyone could do it there's fuck all pride to be taken if you have 'talent'. That's like saying anyone can take a photo. Sure, anyone can press a button and record an image, but good photography is a skill and a talent.

    We should acknowledge and embrace that writing well is hard, to give us something to aim for, rather than just accept whatever is made because fuck it, it must be good enough, because anyone can do it! Mediocrity be damned!

    /rant

    But starting with the end is good advice.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2015
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  21. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    Good point. We should strive to be the best writers we can be, not settle to being like Meyers or Dan Brown. I think the advice is just to lessen the stress newbie writers place on themselves to be like the greatest of the great from the starting point. We all have to start somewhere, so if the best we can do at the start is being like Dan Brown, then so be it. We work our way past that. That's what revisions of the drafts do: take us from being Dan Brown v.2.0 to being something better.
     
  22. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Well, if new writers have that expectation in the first place they might as well quit and save themselves the hassle. You don't strum a guitar for a few minutes expecting to join the Rolling Stones. Playing, ergo writing, for personal fun is fine, and should be encouraged. But for those with higher aspirations hard work and dedication should be part of the deal at the very start. And if at any point they feel like quitting, they should quit and do something else, what's the point otherwise? But if they can't quit, if they can't give up, if they can't just let it be and need to strive to get better and better and better, then they'll have enough desire to keep on ploughing the ground. New writers are like new anything: gymnasts, tennis players, architects, racing drivers. They train, hard, and most never make it to the top. Not being the best at the start should be obvious. If it's not, they have no respect for the craft.
     
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  23. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    With that being said, of all the existing talents in the world, photography is certainly one of the easiest/ least impressive.

    (Unless maybe if you work for National Geographic)
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2015
  24. Aaron DC

    Aaron DC Contributor Contributor

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    What do you mean when you write "photography is one of the easiest / least impressive?"
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2015
  25. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Being an award winning photographer myself, I'd have to agree.
     
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