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  1. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Who owns the word, marriage?

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by GingerCoffee, Jun 29, 2015.

    Started in the Not Happy forum:
    OK, so ignoring any moral arguments, hopefully, you seem to be saying that one religion, or one group of religions owns the title, "married".

    If a gay couple commits to a civil union, and they then get married in their Humanist Church, officiated by a designated minister in the church, you don't want them to call that marriage?

    Isn't that discriminating against their religion?

    I assume you have no objection to a Hindu marriage. Why would you discriminate against a Humanist marriage?


    I think common law marriages are more complex than that but it would depend on the wording and the relationship. Obviously it wouldn't apply to roommates. But if a law was intended to allow two individuals to settle any property disputes should a combined household need to be separated then gender shouldn't matter.
     
  2. BrianIff
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    BrianIff I'm so piano, a bad punctuator. Contributor

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    I think it's about the symbolism. One could believe in liberal democracy (same rights for all), but have a problem with calling it marriage. I don't speak for myself, but understand the position. Because marriage is instituted as the legitimate form of sexual relationships in Christian doctrine, a sin (to most Christians) cannot "taint" the term. I guess the conversation would get into whether being gay is a choice since other faiths and atheists use the term, but Christians don't object, or there is no issue to them since as far as I know, I've never heard of non-Christian marriage being referred to as a sin.

    ETA: In the same way that a practicing Christian is taught that Sunday is no longer just the second day of the weekend, marriage's meaning is also specified, and hence, the reluctance to use the term outside of heterosexuality.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2015
  3. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    I can't really debate this. I'm a traditionalist and I just feel the way I feel. Marriage should be for a man and a woman. What would be wrong with calling it a civil union as long as it gives the same rights?
     
  4. izzybot
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    izzybot Human Disaster Contributor

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    My concern with this argument has always been that irreligious people can and do also get married. That alone indicates that religion doesn't 'own' the concept or the word and hasn't in a long time, imo.
     
  5. NigeTheHat
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    NigeTheHat Contributing Member Contributor

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    This article lays out a couple of reasons why separate-but-equal tends not to be equal:

    http://www.alternet.org/story/57722/why_civil_unions_aren't_enough

    (Don't worry, it's pretty short)

    Even if we're considering the hypothetical civil union that genuinely gives the same rights as marriage and where you don't have to worry about any of the legal-or-employer-based crap the article mentions, there's still the fact that marriage is an old institution with a lot of emotional resonance, and saying one set of people aren't allowed to have one, even if you give them something nominally identical, implies that they're not good enough for it. Little discriminations like these add up.

    It'd be quite nice to have both available to everyone. I know several people who like the way a marriage gives a lasting commitment to another person but don't like the baggage the term brings with it.
     
  6. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    I honestly think that gay marriages are still going to run into problems when they are in different countries.
     
  7. Hubardo
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    Hubardo Contributing Member Contributor

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    From this article:

    Various types of same-sex marriages have existed,[1] ranging from informal, unsanctioned relationships to highly ritualized unions.[2]

    Cicero mentions the marriage (using the Latin verb for "to marry", i.e. nubere) of the son of Curio the Elder, but he does it in a metaphorical form to criticize his enemy Antonius. Cicero states thus that the younger Curio was "united in a stable and permanent marriage" to Antonius.[3] Martial also mentions a number of same-sex marriages, but always in derisory terms against people whom he wants to mock.[4]

    Practices and rituals for same sex unions were more recognized in Mesopotamia than in ancient Egypt.[5] In ancient Assyria, there was considered to be nothing wrong with homosexual love between men.[6][7][8][8] The Almanac of Incantations contained prayers giving equal standing to the love of a man for both a woman and a man.[9]

    At least two of the Roman Emperors were in same-sex unions; and in fact, thirteen out of the first fourteen Roman Emperors held to be bisexual or exclusively homosexual.[10] The first Roman emperor to have married a man was Nero, who is reported to have married two other men on different occasions. First with one of his freedman, Pythagoras, to whom Nero took the role of the bride, and later as a groom Nero married a young boy, who resembled one of his concubines,[11] named Sporus.

    Adolescent emperor Elagabalus referred to his chariot driver, a blond slave from Caria named Hierocles, as his husband.[12] He also married an athlete named Zoticus in a lavish public ceremony in Rome amidst the rejoicings of the citizens.[13]

    These same-sex marriages continued until Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. A law in the Theodosian Code (C. Th. 9.7.3) was issued in 342 AD by the Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans. This law prohibited same-sex marriage in ancient Rome and ordered that those who were so married were to be executed.[14][15]

    In the Middle Ages, a same-sex marriage between the two men Pedro Díaz and Muño Vandilaz in the Galician municipality of Rairiz de Veiga in Spain occurred on 16 April 1061. They were married by a priest at a small chapel. The historic documents about the church wedding were found at Monastery of San Salvador de Celanova.[16]

    In ancient India same-sex marriage was more common. One example being a Princess named Shikhandi (born Shikhandini) who was married off to another princess by her father King Drupada.[citation needed] According to traditions in South India, Krishna marriedIravan to fulfill one of his three last wishes.[citation needed]

    The Siwa Oasis in Egypt had an historical acceptance of male homosexuality and even rituals of same-sex marriage — traditions that Egyptian authorities have sought to repress, with increasing success, since the early 20th century.[17] The German egyptologistGeorge Steindorff explored the oasis in the year 1900 and reported that homosexual relations were common and often extended to a form of marriage[18]
     
  8. Lewdog
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    I'm sorry @Hubardo but you are giving all this information from the past not the present. Gay marriage is not a common thing around the world today. You are also equating many cultures' way of unionship that may be like marriage, but isn't always called marriage.
     
  9. Hubardo
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    Hubardo Contributing Member Contributor

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    From this article:

    Same-sex marriage became legal nationwide in the Netherlands[nb 2](2001), Belgium (2003), Spain (2005), Canada (2005), South Africa (2006), Norway (2009), Sweden (2009), Portugal (2010),Iceland (2010), Argentina (2010), Denmark[nb 1] (2012), Brazil (2013), France (2013), Uruguay (2013), New Zealand[nb 3] (2013), the United Kingdom[nb 4] (2014), Luxembourg (2015) and the United States (2015). The laws in Slovenia and Finland are expected to take effect in 2015 and on 1 March 2017, respectively; in addition, following a constitutional referendum, Ireland is expected to introduce legislation in 2015 making same-sex marriage legal. In the United States, same-sex marriages have been ruled legal by the Supreme Court. In Mexico, same-sex marriages are only performed regularly in Mexico City, Quintana Roo, Coahuila and Chihuahua, but these marriages are recognized by all Mexican states and by the Mexican federal government.[78] On June 3, 2015, the Supreme Court of Justice of the Nation released a "jurisprudential thesis" declaring the current purpose of marriage, procreation, as unconstitutional and discriminating towards same-sex couples. Courts nationwide must now authorize marriages of same-sex couples through injunctions, a process slower and more expensive than that for an opposite-sex marriage.[79]Israel does not recognize same-sex marriages performed on their territory. Same-sex marriages performed in foreign jurisdictions are recorded strictly 'for statistical purposes', thereby avoiding official recognition of same-sex marriages by the state.[80]
     
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  10. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    Do you realize how many countries there are in the world?

    Just so you know, 257.
     
  11. NigeTheHat
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    NigeTheHat Contributing Member Contributor

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    Probably. But my girlfriend has run into problems in other countries when she's tried to wear trousers or short skirts, and that doesn't mean she should stop wearing them here.
     
  12. Hubardo
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    Hubardo Contributing Member Contributor

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    How many countries would it take for it to become common? 51%? Then what?

    I don't understand your argument. I was trying to demonstrate that unions/marriage between dick+dick / vagina+vagina has been around a long time.

    Also, which translation of the Bible is the one you go by? Out of curiosity.
     
  13. izzybot
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    izzybot Human Disaster Contributor

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    I don't understand if your point is that marriage should be for man+woman or if you're saying you're concerned about complications same-sex couples would run into in other countries? The second issue seems like a whole 'nother thing to me.
     
  14. Lewdog
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    I don't consider myself a religious man, but I do believe in traditional values.
     
  15. BrianIff
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    BrianIff I'm so piano, a bad punctuator. Contributor

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    It's interesting, though. Could there be a "two-state solution" to Christians/traditionalists and progressives? I think the U.S. is unique in the sense that there are two major segments of society deeply vested in the definition, one way or the other. Secularism in the Commonwealth, for example, is much higher than the U.S. I'm open-minded to thinking that practicing Christians might not have a problem with non-Christians referring to it as marriage, by and large, but I may be wrong. Thoughts? p.s. Especially about the "two-state solution."
     
  16. Lewdog
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    No the point was, someone said that civil unions aren't recognized the same as marriage in other countries, and I said even if there is a same sex marriage I believe they are going to have problems as well.
     
  17. Hubardo
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    Hubardo Contributing Member Contributor

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    What does "traditional values" mean?
     
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  18. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    It means like a man and a woman get married. :)
     
  19. izzybot
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    izzybot Human Disaster Contributor

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    Ah I see, my mistake.

    I mean sure, but a same-sex couple going to a country that's still largely homophobic is going to have issues regardless of whether they're married. I'm not sure why that has any bearing on whether or not they can still get married in a country that does allow it. Hell, legality or no, we're gonna have problems in the US for a good while yet.
     
  20. NigeTheHat
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    In that case, I wouldn't panic. They still get to do that. :)
     
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  21. Lewdog
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    I'm not saying they can't get legal joined, I just don't like the idea of them using the term marriage. Civil unionship would give all the same rights, and once it became common in the U.S. it would start to be recognized more around the world.
     
  22. BrianIff
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    BrianIff I'm so piano, a bad punctuator. Contributor

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  23. izzybot
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    izzybot Human Disaster Contributor

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    It seems like 'traditional values' just means whatever you want it to mean. Which is fine; opinions are cool. My confusion stems from why your opinions/beliefs/feelings should be prioritized over other people's. Maybe a more to-the-point question would be why do you think you own marriage, are allowed to define it as you see fit? (Not attempting to single you out here, specifically - I do mean you + other people who share your opinion on the matter.)
     
  24. Lewdog
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    There are still some states that have the law that it is not discrimination if it is an act that is against their religion.
     
  25. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    First Off I never said I "owned" anything. Second off I might be alone on this forum, but I'm not alone in my opinion across the country. Traditional values means what it means. It's about how you were raised and what you were taught growing up. I'm a man that can handle change, but there are just some thing I don't think should be messed with, and marriage is one of them.
     
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