Why Ask??

Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by EdFromNY, Jun 19, 2013.

  1. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2013
    Messages:
    17,674
    Likes Received:
    19,889
    Location:
    Scotland
    If I can enter the fray at this point—late—

    Most of us on this forum are unpublished authors. And some of the published ones have not published novels, short stories, whatever ...they may have written articles, blogs, been journalists, etc. Some may be self-published. Not everyone is qualified to pass judgement on everything, just because 'they' are published themselves.

    In other words, none of us have all the answers. Even published authors don't have all the answers. They know what THEY did to get published, but their writing and personal stories will all differ. Just go into any bookstore and look at what's on the shelves. Is everything there the same? no. Do you want to read everything on the shelves? no. Do you think everything that has ever been published is fabulously-written? no.

    And yet ...they've all been published, haven't they?

    So ...I think we all need to dish out our 'advice' with a degree of humility and a huge dollop of courtesy.

    By all means, say what you THINK is wrong with a piece, or what you like about a piece. Respond to a questioner the way you would want to be responded to, if you had asked the question. And, as others have pointed out, it's a good idea to consider the age and experience of the questioner. If you think a question is stupid, juvenile, whatever ...well, you always have the option of not responding at all, if you can't think of any way to answer without being dismissive.
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. The Peanut Monster

    The Peanut Monster New Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2013
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Hear, hear.
     
  3. chicagoliz

    chicagoliz Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    3,280
    Likes Received:
    817
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Again, I don't find Cog's advice all that harsh. However, your point about a 15 year old being more easily discouraged is valid. In this particular instance, I would find the reply more problematic if it were the only reply. But the fact that Ed's reply was there as well makes a difference in that it softens the first words of Cog's reply, because the rest is absolutely correct. Yes, we should be cognizant in our own replies of who we are replying to, and it shouldn't be dependent on other replies to soften our own, if we decide that is a priority for our own responses. But I still think a variety of replies can give a good flavor of the types of responses to expect on other questions. Some will be more direct than others. In the example you site, Cog did not say the poster was stupid or would never succeed or anything of the sort. I don't think we have sufficient evidence to conclude that he in fact feels this way about that particular poster. Some folks have indicated they have never asked this sort of question, so maybe they would suspect it -- but I think at this point, no one would arrive at a hard and fast conclusion that is inalterable regardless of what the poster might subsequently post.

    Actually, what I find more discouraging to young writers are pieces of advice that tell them that if they write something that they will be sued for every penny they have now or will ever have. In most instances where this advice is given, I find that outcome extremely unlikely. Particularly when a young person is just beginning to write a story, and the likelihood of it being published (even self-published) is remote, I find this discouragement well, discouraging. Usually the answer would depend on what, exactly, the writer ends up writing in the story, but there is a fear that they'd write something that did have some sort of legal issue and it would be an unfixable one, and then the writer wasted all this time writing the story, which is some kind of huge loss, ignoring what is learned simply through the process of writing the story, even if it never sees the light of day. But this is a different issue.

    As far as:
    Man -I am very sorry to read that this happened to you. However, by definition, the troll is not giving helpful advice. A troll isn't seeking to help. A troll just wants to stir up trouble. That's a problem. But it's not what is being discussed here, involving the harsh or condescending framing of advice. Certainly someone saying, "That is a stupid idea and would never work," is not only mean and harsh, but also patently incorrect.
     
  4. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    36,161
    Likes Received:
    2,827
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    Did you even TRY to read what I wrote, or did you simply jump on the post as part of your ongoing attacks against me?

    What it says is that the idea doesn't form the story, the writer does, and that it is the effort and skill of the writer that determined the qualty of the resulting story.

    It isn't that hard to comprehend, unless you are busy chasing an agenda.
    Perhaps she will, perhaps not. And I suppose you assume that my response is the reason, if she does not.
     
  5. Pheonix

    Pheonix A Singer of Space Operas and The Fourth Mod of RP Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    5,712
    Likes Received:
    406
    Location:
    The Windy City
    I see Cog and Ginger are at it again... Fun fun fun... :p

    Anyway...

    I never felt like I needed validation of a story that I wanted to write, mainly because I never cared whether anyone was going to read it or not... I write for my own pleasure, and if I get published someday, that's awesome, but it isn't my goal.

    I think that when a person's goal as a writer is to be published and become a successful author, that's where that desire for validation comes from. They're trying to figure out if people would read it or not, so that they can write it in a way that will be commercially successful. It seems to me that it all comes down to motives, is a person writing because they love writing and want to do it, or are they writing because they want to be famous and live the life of TV's Richard Castle?

    Having a desire to write for writings sake, should remove the need for validation. Validation only needs to happen when an insecurity exists, and what does a writer have to be insecure about if they don't care who reads their work?

    Or, another possibility is that its vanity. The person thinks that they have obviously come up with the greatest idea ever and wants people to know it, and then tell them how amazing they are.

    I suppose that not everyone falls into one of those two camps, but it seems to me like it's a pretty big majority of the people that ask.
     
  6. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,385
    Likes Received:
    7,080
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    Yes, I read what you posted. I quoted the part that most exemplified the problem. The rest of your post didn't make the quoted part any more meaningful, despite what you believe.

    As for the member who has yet to return, I don't know anything about her reaction to your words unless she comes back and tells us. I only know how your post was likely to have sounded to someone who was new here, and young.


    Is it always tough kitties with you if someone might not get whatever advice jewels you believe you are passing out? My only agenda is to speak up when I have something to say, just like I imagine other people here do. Assuming I have something more personal than that at stake is a rationale for discounting what I've said instead of considering any value in it. How you perceive my comments is not a problem for me. Such human nature is predictable. Discounting someone differs from caring how someone perceives what I've said if misunderstanding or miscommunication is the reason.

    I've seen a lot of forum nastiness over the years, so when I see it I say so. I'm also big on evidence and tend to speak up when an issue involves something I don't think the evidence supports. And one of the reasons we conflict so much, IMO, is you don't seem to like 'frank' comments when you're on the receiving end.
     
  7. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,385
    Likes Received:
    7,080
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    I agree with your sentiment when it comes to those of us who are sure what we want to. But what about the younger members of the forum?

    I'm having a hard time figuring out why some people here seem to be missing empathy for what it's like to be a less than overconfident teenager.
     
  8. Garball

    Garball Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2013
    Messages:
    2,827
    Likes Received:
    1,337
    Location:
    S'port, LA
    Tough love?
     
  9. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,385
    Likes Received:
    7,080
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    Yeah, but it's not appropriate for all situations.
     
  10. Pheonix

    Pheonix A Singer of Space Operas and The Fourth Mod of RP Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    5,712
    Likes Received:
    406
    Location:
    The Windy City
    I am 21. I just got past being an less than overconfident teenager...

    I was always shy, introverted and seriously lacking in confidence (most of that still applies), but if there was one thing that I never felt insecure about, it was writing. It is and always has been one of the only things in my life where I have complete control over it without having to worry what other people think. To me, it is one of my greatest sources of confidence, to know that I have at least a partial mastery of the English language and that my choice of words and plots and settings is totally up to me and no one else.

    I have never had the goal to be published, it would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath. I've only ever written for myself, and it wasn't until I started to figure out that I might be good at it that I decided to show people, not to get praise, but to say, "Look what I did! Here's something I can be proud of!" And if they didn't like it, then I figured out why and either improved or decided that not eveyrone was going to like it.

    That's why I have little empathy for the younger members who have no confidence. What right does a writer have to be the god of a world they create unless they're confident enough to create it without anyone else's approval?

    Writing is creation. You're interpreting the world as you see it, or creating a world that you want to see. Neither of those have any room for the opinions of others to influence.

    Once you've written it, you have the option of submitting it for the approval of others, to give them the right to see your world and judge it. And if you don't like their judgement, you also have the right to toss it out the nearest airlock, because there are some people in the world who wouldn't know a good story if it kicked them in the shin with a steel toe boot.

    There is no room as a writer for a lack of confidence. Now, I suppose I should probably clarify that...

    I don't mean that a writer should think that everything they write is god's gift to mankind. They still have to be humble, and recognize that a good portion of what they write is going to be crap. What I mean is that if a writer has a fault of confidence that doesn't even let them get started on a writing project without asking someone else's opinion, there's a problem.

    I hope this doesn't come across as angry or unkind or anything. Its just something that bothers me about people who want to write. You have to have a particular temperament, and if you don't it will be very hard to become a good writer.

    It's an art, and art takes confidence and resolve. If a person doesn't have those, they need to develop them before they start down this path, or pretty soon after they start. Otherwise they will be left asking permission to write, and that doesn't get anyone anywhere.
     
  11. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    There are different ways the judgment can be expressed. Writers do need to develop thick skin. However, that's no excuse for someone to be a jerk to an aspiring writer. It's not 'honest,' 'real' or whatever other excuse people like to attach to it. It's just being a jerk and choosing to convey the criticism accordingly. Anyone on this forum is adept enough at the written word to choose to express themselves in that manner or not.

    It is also important to note that people develop different. OK, so you have confidence and a thick skin. Me too. So what? That's no reason not to help someone who doesn't have it. People who don't have the patience or inclination to help those who may be more insecure or less confident would better serve the whole community by not posting in those threads. No one is forcing them to respond. Again, it just comes down to wanting to be a jerk. There's no other reasonable explanation when the same critique can be expressed without being one.
     
  12. Pheonix

    Pheonix A Singer of Space Operas and The Fourth Mod of RP Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    5,712
    Likes Received:
    406
    Location:
    The Windy City
    I agree completely. Being a jerk is never appropriate, especially not when dealing with less secure people. I do not approve of being a jerk, but I also don't have to much sympathy for those that feel like they need approval for everything they do.

    That's why I hardly ever respond to the concept/plot approval threads. When I do critiques, I always try and be nice. There's never an excuse to be nasty.
     
  13. Rafiki

    Rafiki Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2011
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    33
    Location:
    California
    Inherently, I think people want to be recognized. I believe the people posting their story ideas here, are the people who are not writing their story; rather, they're seeking some kind of external approval that would validate their skills as a creative thinker without having to put the time into actually creating. If they were serious about the idea, they'd be working on it, to hell with disapproval. Of course, I could be wrong (and I so often am), because I rarely pay attention to these postings. It's possible there are some serious writers among them; in that case ignore my air of casual dismissal and insert the equivalent of a verbal shrug.
     
  14. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,385
    Likes Received:
    7,080
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    So, from a less than overconfident teen to a judgmental 20 something, I see. ;) :p

    I used to be an overconfident judgmental teen, myself. :D


    Everyone who asks, "How does this sound for a story idea?", doesn't necessarily come from some monolithic block of writer wannabes who are all in the same head place. Further back in the thread was this post:
    The example I found, without looking past the first page in the sub-forum, was a 15 yr old with 2 posts, ever, in the forum.

    "Young" does indeed explain her inquiry.


    If one thinks everyone who asks how an idea sounds is all of those things Cog describes or isn't a writer because they wouldn't have asked the question if they were, it might be a reason not to answer the post. Drawing on a nursing example, some nurses get cynical about patients because the nurses are burned out. If someone in this forum is burned out when it comes to answering the, "How does this sound for a story idea?", question, they're probably not doing the person any favors answering the post.
     
  15. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,385
    Likes Received:
    7,080
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    I want to say again how insightful I find this statement.
     
  16. Kaidonni

    Kaidonni Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    9
    I think it's mainly down to a lack of experience and confidence. That's fine, plenty of people have been there. The answer should be provided with the correct attitude, one of helping out these people. Ultimately, their question is one only they can answer through hard work and patience. Every single idea can be done in a million ways (which may be an understatement), and if someone enjoys an idea that much, it may just be that they need to find out how to screw it up royally before they create an amazing story using that idea at its base.

    A work of art grows from next to nothing, from a pile of crap in all honesty. The first approach one takes to developing an idea is likely to fall by the wayside very quickly as something else occurs, and then the piece builds up and up as new thoughts spring to mind, and the piece is developed further, redeveloped, and refined. After even a short while it can be amazing how the artwork has evolved, how different features came to mind. Those features that enhance and use the idea at their base, those are things that can only come to life through actually working on the story. They cannot exist in a vacuum, they cannot just occur. Writers - and all other artists - are bouncing ideas off of themselves, they are making their work stronger just by working on it. By all means come online and create a brainstorming thread, but working on your stories is the ultimate form of brainstorming.

    You can't fix a blank page, but you can fix a bad page - or as Robert Penn Warren says: "You have to make the good out of the bad because that is all you have got to make it out of."
     
  17. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    Yes, I'm right there with Pheonix.
     
  18. Pheonix

    Pheonix A Singer of Space Operas and The Fourth Mod of RP Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    5,712
    Likes Received:
    406
    Location:
    The Windy City
    :p

    I'm not trying to be judgmental, I'm just saying that you have to realize that with writing, it's better to ask forgiveness that permission.

    And if a person, regardless of age, doesn't realize that, they need to get over that idea. Like Cog said, youth explains asking once or twice, but not over and over again. I just don't have too much empathy for the younger teens who post questions like that here because I was never one of them, and it feels like, of all the things to be asking for validation over, storylines just aren't something you should have to validate.
     
  19. Rafiki

    Rafiki Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2011
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    33
    Location:
    California
    Have you ever met a teenager? They're insufferable, know it all little shits. You can be a teenager all the way through your twenties, you only get to graduate from that state when you realize that you know jack-shit about the world. The next stage is the judgemental 20 something; who, on the surface, detests everything about the teenager, but in secret longs for the blissful, all knowing ignorance, they used to have.
     
  20. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,385
    Likes Received:
    7,080
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    Thank his father's genetics my own son (now 24) was nothing like me as a teen. :p
     
  21. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,385
    Likes Received:
    7,080
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    The girl in question asked once.
     
  22. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    36,161
    Likes Received:
    2,827
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    There was no "rest of my post", other than me directly quoting the original post in its entirety. My point stands. You willfully misinterpreted it, because you were predisposed to do so. It isn't the first time you have done so with my posts, and that is why I am calling you on it.

    Cut it out.
     
  23. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,385
    Likes Received:
    7,080
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    I quoted you, you know, cut and paste. It wasn't cherry picked on purpose and you've stated your opinion.

    I think that's all here that needs a reply.
     
  24. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    8,102
    Likes Received:
    4,605
    I try not to make fun of the teenagers here, because logistically they have a better chance at publishing than the still un-published old timers here.

    Hypothetical situation- 50 year old unpublished man/woman on forum tells 14 year old beginner they're wasting time on WF asking silly questions. 14 year old, being discouraged, quits forum. For the next twenty years, that once 14 year uses all the time they would have spent on the forum for writing, and finally gets published. Meanwhile, that once 50 year old, never having been discouraged from whatever it was he was doing that prevented him from getting published in the first place, continues to use his time chastising others on the forum, and eventually dies, still unpublished.
     
  25. Rafiki

    Rafiki Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2011
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    33
    Location:
    California
    I like Jannert, she's probably my favorite person here- always kind and helpful. If I can just quote her previous post as a reminder to the two who are about to throw a hissy fit.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice