Why Ask??

Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by EdFromNY, Jun 19, 2013.

  1. Domino

    Domino Active Member

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    Not everyone is the same.

    Maybe a person thinks of a "great idea" for a story. They feel excited about their idea. They want to crack on and write it, but they'd like to share it with someone too. Maybe people in their real life aren't interested. So they think, hey, you know who would be interested in this? My fellow storytellers. I'll pop online and find some, ask them about it, as they're the ones whose opinions will actually mean something. They're the ones who'll tell me whether or not I'm right to be excited by my idea.

    Wrong! "Feck off with that, will ya? We don't want to talk about your idea while it's still nothing more than an idea, foolish amateur. You're driving us all mental with your pathetic self-doubt. If you don't even have the balls to do anything without approval from random strangers on the internet, you'll never make it as a writer."

    Personally I don't feel the need to ask anyone if they like my ideas or not either, but some people do want feedback while they're in the early stages of constructing their mental storyboard, and I don't mind giving them a smile, a thumbs up or a "Go for it!" if I like the cut of their jib. A bit of support for some people can get the cogs turning even harder, believe it or not. I have all the self-confidence of a wet tea towel, so I can understand that. I'm certainly not saying you should vomit rainbows and butterflies all over them, but there's no need to lose patience with them either. It's not like they're coming along with the intention of annoying the crap out everyone or being a pest. And if they irk you that much, nobody's forcing you to read their threads. You could always just click the back button and find a thread that keeps the veins in your forehead safely tucked away out of sight. :)
     
  2. Kaidonni

    Kaidonni Member

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    I'd advise people not to be too willing to share their ideas for stories not because of possible theft (blah blah ideas can't be copyrighted anyway, etc), but because many people get a sense of satisfaction out of having written and sharing their work, they get a high - and you can get the same just asking for approval of your idea, just sharing it. That can subconsciously cause people to procrastinate because they've already got what they wanted without having to put in all that time and effort. I say keep the ideas bottled up, don't share them...then writhe in agony until you break and write it out and revise it and put it up for critique. Then you'll get your satisfaction with a partly-completed piece of work and not just a synopsis or summary of your whole story/idea.
     
  3. Domino

    Domino Active Member

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    Yes, you're probably right, and that would probably be more helpful to them than a pat on the back before they've done anything. I do see your point. And if you put it nicely like that I'm sure they would see your point too.
     
  4. Kaidonni

    Kaidonni Member

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    I've been there and done it, and I still want to do it. It's a great feeling...and not sharing it is agony. It wants to burst right out of my chest at dinner time. It's that emotional pain that gets pen to paper/fingers to keyboard in the end, because it's the only other way to alleviate it and get the satisfaction. But it's also something people need to learn to do over time, it will take some effort to learn to resist the urge to share too soon. People will fall, but that's how you learn to pick yourself right back up and continue regardless.
     
  5. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Sometimes though it isn't advice. It's just some wisecrack about writers having to think of everything themselves and that there's no real merit in asking any creative question. You know, the old useless line of: 'Don't ask if it works, make it work!.' Some people make the same replies time and again and I find that far more frustrating than the questions, especially since those answers have no substance at all. It's kind of like those people that need to butt in and say something in any conversation they hear simply because they need to put forward an opinion even if they don't have one that's useful.
     
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  6. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    And that is a transparent attempt to attack someone who you disagree with. Your accusation is a lame ad hominem attack with all the subtlety of a political attack ad.
     
  7. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    No it isn't. It's me pointing out a type of post that many of us, not just me (or I wouldn't get the rep comments thanking me for pointing it out), find eternally frustrating and in direct reference to the discussion currently being conducted. However, directly calling my post a 'lame attack', is exactly that. If you find it was personally directed at you, as you clearly do, then maybe a bit of self reflection and not verbal attack could be in order.
     
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  8. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    I know my statement is true, you know it's true, and your denial of it was right on schedule. So don't bother. We all know this script, and it's boring.

    Consider yourself busted.
     
  9. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Hey, I'm not trying to pick a fight at all, and you can read into my posts whatever you like. My point is that the types of answers that I described have the impacts as I described. If your posts fall into that catagory, then so be it. Regardless, I'm not one to be bullied so I'm not overly concerned by your response. The forum members can decide if what I wrote has any merit or not. And if they disagree, I won't be upset.

    Edit: Busted? What on earth are you on about? Consider yourself reported.
     
  10. blackstar21595

    blackstar21595 New Member

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    Cogito and Selbbin you're wasting your time on each other. Your argument isn't going to solve anything or make a difference. You both disagree with each other, and it doesn't look like your positions will budge. But I agree with Cogito on the point he was making earlier.
     
  11. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Supporter Contributor

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    This thread is getting pretty far out of hand. Let's settle down a little, shall we? Have a little more respect for each other.
     
  12. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    I've been kind of skimming over the discussion here, and if truth be told, I still think the atmosphere here is more friendly and open than on other forums I used to frequent (the operative word being used to), and if someone needs advice or validation, they'll receive a lot of encouraging comments as well. On the other hand, there're trolls everywhere. On one forum I frequented, the king troll was the friend of several mods, which made things pretty annoying 'cause when you get jerked around by some needle-dick who will never ever be banned because of the friendship... well, why bother.

    I agree. Then again, I do understand the sentiment "jerks understand only jerkenese", so one may feel so frustrated with another writer they consider a jerk that they act the jerk right back.

    I think this is somewhat true as well. On the other hand, there're many young, aspiring writers on the boards and even the experienced ones can stumble when their communication lacks tone and facial expressions. That's when it's a good idea to ask "did you mean it like this" etc. Not that I've always managed to follow this principle myself, and I've definitely toned down my Scandinavian straight-forwardness and lack of political correctness for international discussion boards.

    That's an unsettling thought.

    In any case, it certainly is a little different to dislike an idea and explain why, and disliking an idea just because.


    And that responsibility lies in each and every one of us. It does benefit an aspiring or already published writer to behave themselves on other than moral or ethical levels too: people will be more likely to read and appreciate your novels/stories.

    They might also feel it's safer to ask for an opinion anonymously.
     
  13. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    I can't honestly say that is a useless line. Some people can make something work in writing where others can't. Someone might be able to depict a 90s drug fueled party well, but someone else might not be able to physically get the magic down on paper. It's all about trial and error until you find the stuff you are good at, and the only way to be sure is to write it.
     
  14. Kaidonni

    Kaidonni Member

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    Agreed.

    Selbbin, I'm not making any wisecracks in this thread (not that you were referring to me). I hope my replies have been useful, that the younger writers reading my replies dive into their writing. In the end, the only way to know if an idea works, if it is any good, is trying. That sometimes includes failing before succeeding (not a nice thought, but it does). It is all well and good asking if an idea is good or if it works, but it ultimately has to be put into practice, it has to be built on top of in the form of a drawing, a poem, a story, a movie - however the artist wishes to convey it. Only once work on the actual piece of art has begun can a writer truly tell if an idea is any good - and most times, the fault will be with the way they are writing it rather than the base idea itself. Experience has a lot to do with getting it right, and some ideas might be too complex for inexperienced writers to pull off well, but it doesn't mean those ideas can't work or don't work.

    It's probably a rite of passage to ask if an idea works, if it's any good to write, and to be told to get stuck in and find out for oneself. I'm sure plenty of us have sought approval, that our ideas are valid (we know it's going to take a lot of work to get them anywhere, so we like being reassured), but if we don't actually start the writing, it's no good asking. Any answers about how good an idea is are useless anyway because it relies on the ability of the writer to pull it off in the first place.

    While this point of view might be frustrating to some people, it's objectively right - until you actually try, it's just an idea. It doesn't matter how good or bad anyone else says it is, or whether anyone thinks it will work. It is the writers purpose to make it work, to make the ideas that sing to them live regardless of the naysayers. If you get it wrong, try and try again. Maybe you won't be able to pull off a particular idea at all, or need more experience, or the idea needs tweaking in places - no one online can provide that answer except when critiquing actual writing. I don't want to discourage anyone with my posts in this thread, I want them to go out, write, return to the forums and make me love their ideas through that writing.

    If people want to brainstorm, that is perfectly fine. Sometimes we need other people to bounce our ideas off of. But to ask if an idea works at all, if it's any good, I'd show them this (my) post.
     
  15. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    The issue isn't about telling a person to write their story idea instead of asking about it, it's about how one says it. Scolding a person isn't an option that is likely to be effective.
     
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  16. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    I agree with you. But it is also worth remembering that some people have been saying these things for years, and years. Over time the politeness does tend to fade away. It's no one's fault, it just happens. I've seen this often enough, and not just with this sort of topic. It's like people asking help with homework on a literature forum I haunt, and in what scene of Macbeth do the Weird Sisters say blah blah. There is only so times you can say 'read the play yourself' before metaphysical claws are out. It might not be exactly 'right' but it's only human.
     
  17. Lost72

    Lost72 Member

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    +1

    For the record, (and this isn't directed at you, Ginger, because I find your posts informative, thoughtful, and most importantly, polite) I know how some of these cocky replies might affect some of the newer members. I was so appalled by one such instance of less than pleasant behaviour that I PMed the OP to tell them not to mind the idiots. She/he thanked me for making them feel a little better, but isn't it sad that, through asking an innocent question, they were made to feel terrible in the first place? They haven't posted since, and yes, they may never have intended to return, but my gut instinct tells me that the post in question had a lot to do with it.


    The thing is, there are thousands registered to this site, and only a handful of them post. I believe that speaks volumes.


    And, goodness me, all this 'attacking me' nonsense. Is it really the school holidays already?
     
  18. Lost72

    Lost72 Member

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    No excuse.
     
  19. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    You are right, it's not. But it might serve as an explanation. Often times these things need a middle guy. :p
     
  20. Kaidonni

    Kaidonni Member

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    No, it doesn't. The amount of people registered on a forum is no indication of how many will actually post. People just sign up and forget or don't bother posting - I hardly ever post, and only really started posting in earnest recently. It also depends how often some of these people post and where - have you checked each individual poster's activity? I wouldn't go assuming that the aforementioned cocky replies (note: not disagreeing that replies can be cocky and discouraging) are the main reason. More people will sign up to a website than will actually post. It's like computer games - the people who grace the forums, the people who discuss in-depth and mod computer games, they are actually a minority; millions more are simply browsing the forums, downloading the mods and playing the game.
     
  21. Lost72

    Lost72 Member

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    Yet you assume that's not the reason. Have you checked each individual poster's activity?

    I suspect a percentage of those absent members don't post because they are discouraged, and I'm happy to agree to differ :D
     
  22. Kaidonni

    Kaidonni Member

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    We are both assuming, but it is still likely that it's because less people will post than sign up to any forum. Fire and forget - I've done it plenty of times. Yes, people will be discouraged, but I dare say a fair few have a preferred writing forum that they stick to even after signing up to others. I've been signed up to Absolute Write for ages, and hardly ever posted there also. Same with Forward Motion.
     
  23. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    It's not unusual for people to register on a forum and never post or just post once or twice.

    But skim through the "plot development" subforum and look at people who've asked questions similar to the ones the OP is talking about. Judge the politeness/impoliteness of the replies and compare that to OP posters who then did not return. I don't know how this compares to other kinds of posts and people not returning, it would take time to do a legitimate statistical analysis. But it sure is easy to find examples of 'scolding' replies and relatively new members not retuning.

    Here are some threads in the plot development forum with OPs that ask related questions, in the order they show up with most recent last post. The criteria was finding the ones that asked about general plot ideas rather than more specific plot questions.

    1) https://www.writingforums.org/showthread.php?t=39335
    A polite reply, OP replies back, the standard 'harsh' reply, member hasn't been back.

    2) https://www.writingforums.org/showthread.php?t=62602
    The LibbiShannon thread already discussed, she still hasn't returned.

    3) https://www.writingforums.org/showthread.php?t=62200
    Most replies are 'harsh', only a couple aren't, guy never came back.

    4) https://www.writingforums.org/showthread.php?t=9650
    OP from 2008. Replies are NICE!!! Someone bumped the thread 3 weeks ago with another positive comment. OP author stayed long enough to post 137 times.

    5) https://www.writingforums.org/showthread.php?t=61906
    This one was more iffy as to meeting the thread type I was looking for, the ideas were more well developed. He got one reply, the standard, do it yourself. He's not been back.

    6) https://www.writingforums.org/showthread.php?t=61722
    Withdrew his question, I put it here because the title fit with my search criteria and I'm posting what comes up, not what supports my observations.

    7) https://www.writingforums.org/showthread.php?t=61574
    Answers include the standard, "it's how you write it", but none of them are particularly harshly worded. The OP author has 45 posts since signing up in Jan. There's one frank answer, but it's not harsh and there are 14 more that amount to a back and forth discussion rather than scolding.

    8) https://www.writingforums.org/showthread.php?t=61346
    Replies are engaging, discuss aspects, except for one, that has the standard message:
    She's still here, only has 14 posts but she didn't leave after the thread. It's interesting in that the thread discussion did not live up to the admonishment at all. There was discussion well beyond, 'sounds great' or 'doesn't'.


    I'm trying to put my finger on what makes some of these replies sound scolding or harsh and what makes saying nearly the same thing not sound that way. It's not always obvious to pinpoint why something sounds like scolding and something else sounds like helpful truth. It comes down to very subtle differences.

    "Your plot doesn't mean anything. It's how you write it that's important."

    "No, it couldn't form a story. Someone has to write it, and then it will become a story.
    How good it is, or how crappy, is solely a matter of how skillfully the writer writes it."

    The first reply says it's how you write it that matters, and while it says, the plot doesn't mean anything, it doesn't say 'your plot idea is worthless, it's clear that the connotation of "doesn't mean anything" refers to good plots as well as bad ones.

    The second one says "your idea is bad". It's the same with telling people it was a bad idea to ask the question. When we knows what the author meant, we may not hear the same connotation as someone who doesn't might hear.

    Rather than taking my opinion for it, however, skim through the threads and compare the different answers to the OP. If you don't have time, just compare #3 and #4 above. The difference is most striking.
     
  24. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Save your passive aggressive bullshit for someone who wasn't born yesterday, someone you haven't gone out of your way to provoke and undermine since the day you joined the site. There is plenty of evidence to back up my assertion. You've insisted on pulling this in public, and so I am responding in the open as well.
     
  25. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    When Minstril warned this thread I would have thought that would have been enough. Thread closed, this is getting too personal.
     

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