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  1. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    Why hate what teen girls love?

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Steerpike, Oct 11, 2015.

  2. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Very insightful:
    [Leaves to edit a few more things in my YA novel]
    :superyesh:
     
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  3. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    Okay, but can anyone provide an example outside of One Direction or Twilight of a franchise that teen girls like and is critically reviled? And can we establish that it's quality is only in question because it's made for a teenage girl demo?
     
  4. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    Well, the article cites the Beatles as an example, and provides contemporaneous quotes. And the fact that the teen girl demo raises the quality issue in a way far different from the teen boy demo is part of the problem.
     
  5. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    The example I thought illustrated the double standard was one of the one's I quoted:
    It's the difference in how teen boy fads are perceived compared to teen girl fads.

    Compare the sentiment toward
    RPGs and sports
    vs boy bands and Twilight​

    I still recall the lunch alcove TVs when I was in college. All guys and maybe one gal would huddle around a sports channel. In another alcove, all gals except maybe one guy (assumed to be gay) would huddle around a soap opera. I always thought the girls were stupider. To this day I am disgusted that daytime TV is heavily laced with game shows and soap operas, all marketed to the stay-at-home moms. And much as I don't watch the sports channels, I've never felt the same stupidity toward watching yet another ball game.

    We are products of our culture. As feminist and liberated as I feel, as important as that is to my protagonist in the novel I'm writing, I still feel soap operas are stupider than ball games.

    And that might be OK, it might be legit. But when you read articles like the OP link that offer some insight into our double standards, it still makes one think about one's own attitudes.

    So I'm torn. There are so many things about women that I find embarrassing. When I think about it, there are plenty things about men I think should embarrass them. Perhaps because I am a woman, I see the stupid guy things as stupid people things while I reserve a special category for stupid women things.

    Like racism, sexism is a long way from disappearing.
     
  6. GingerCoffee
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    For the record, it was only the screaming girls that were seen as stupid when it came to the Beatles. The Beatles themselves were never pigeon-holed into the Taylor Swift or the One Direction music category.
     
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  7. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    Yeah. And Twilight was enjoyed by plenty of adults, both male and female, but yet it is the teenaged girls that seem to take the brunt of the criticism, or at least critics of the work like to pretend it is the province of teenaged girls because that's an easy target for unloading a lot of baseless stereotypes.
     
  8. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    Counter point: the Transformers movies are marketed to a young boy demographic, and they (and Michael Bay) are an internet punchline in stupidity. Also, I'm not sure what RPG you are talking about here. If it's role playing games, there a huge aftermarket of derision for gamers. They are definitely not a demographic that is free from scorn.
     
  9. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    We live in a system that came about as a result of patriarchy. Lots and lots of years of patriarchy. In patriarchal systems, feminine spheres are traditionally devalued. It's part of how the system is set up. So, when boys are interested in something, even something that is kind of stupid, the thing they're interested in still has more inherent value as far as the system is concerned than the things the girls are interested in.

    And even that's not an entirely accurate statement, because those things the girls are interested in aren't just girl-things. Plenty of boys are interested as well, and probably more would be were it not for social stigma. The mere perception that they're girl things, in the province of females (and worse yet, adolescent females) lowers their value all on its own.

    Teenaged girls are smart. They're capable. They're as impressive as a group as their young male counterparts. But as long as things deemed part of the female sphere are devalued, then entertainment, work, or anything else that is predominantly female, or even just perceived to be predominantly female, is going to have less value attached to it.
     
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  10. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    No one is saying there isn't criticism of those things. It's the level and degree of criticism. Sure, Transformers get made fun of. So does D&D. They don't get made fun of to the level, and with the pervasive nastiness, of something like Twilight or 1-Direction. And as someone who has played tabletop RPGs since junior high, I've seen plenty of that side of it. I've not seen the level of vitriol associated with the hate toward teen girl interests, nor the underlying assumption that the boys are just stupid or not in control of themselves. Boys can like stupid things and just be smart boys who happen to enjoy something stupid. When girls like stupid thing, it's because they're stupid teenage girls. That's a bunch of nonsense, in my opinion.
     
  11. GingerCoffee
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    Not just the degree, but the quality of the criticism.
     
  12. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    I'm seeing a lot of hate for the product, Justin Beiber for example. And a lot of hate for the demographic. I'm just not seeing the connection between "teen girls like it" and "It is awful (because teen girls like it)"

    I guess my criticism is that everything shown as an example is something that I consider to be terrible, well outside of my impressions of its fan base. But as they say, you can't see the inside of your eyeballs.

    Or they should say that. You should start saying that.
     
  13. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I understand what you are saying, and there is some degree of hyperbole in the article. But I'm having a hard time with examples.

    What are your examples of equally stupid teen boy things? And things teen girls are into that are not seen as stupid?
     
  14. Australis
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    Sorry, but Twilight was all about ditzy.
    The Beatles. Sure they had some good songs, but there was a lot of trash too. Singing "Hot Potato," and jumping up in the air for four minutes, is an exciting song, if you're three. And if you want to see ugly, research what politics/religion they supported.

    And so, we're allowed to criticize bad action movies, yet not allowed to criticize anything with a teen girl following? Isn't that sexist?
     
  15. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    Well there is the Transformers thing mentioned above for column A. As for column B I'm not really plugged in to the right kind of circles. I would say the Monster High series, but that's only because I know a lot of people who are really into Monster High.

    Oh, I know! The Hunger Games series has a lot of critical clout, but was and is mostly marketed to young girls.

    Edited to add: I'm not sure why people are bringing up Taylor Swift as a denigrated commodity. She's got a lot of acclaim.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2015
  16. GingerCoffee
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    I think you might be conflating 'teen girls like it' with 'teen girls went nuts over it'.

    Not sure of the validity of this data, but I'm pretty sure Hunger Games wasn't a teen girl sensation akin to Twilight.
    Hunger Games: A Demographic Analysis
    Are Transformers seen as flakey as sparkly vampires?
     
  17. Jack Asher
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    Well if that's true it's really hard to separate the data. Again, I'm not really plugged in, so the only real things I could pinpoint would be bands. But now, just as in the past 30 years teen girls have gone crazy for terrible bands. You must remember The New Kids on the Block. But the problem is that all of those bands were objectively bad. e.g. The Monkeys
    Hmmm. I'm not sure about this one either. There are millennials now that cling to their old collectibles, and lend gravitas to the toys. The movies are certainly held up as an example of terrible film making.
     
  18. 123456789
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    Teen girls have the worst taste in "music." That's pretty much a fact.
     
  19. Shattered Shields
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    Shattered Shields Gratsa!

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    No, it's not. Musical "taste" is entirely a matter of opinion.

    Why bother? Can we all, please, answer this question? Why do we bother to care so much about what other people enjoy? Why does it matter? Why would we hate Justin Bieber when that is such a waste of energy, when it doesn't change a single thing?

    I'm not saying we should love everything, I'm saying we should all just like what we like and leave our fellow humans at peace with what they enjoy. And if you don't like a certain something, that's fine, more power to you, but don't so rudely crap all over what other people find joy in.

    I say be indifferent, don't waste emotional energy with hate.
     
  20. 123456789
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    Do you have a degree in musicology?
     
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  21. Adenosine Triphosphate
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    Adenosine Triphosphate Old Scratch Contributor

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    Watching a serious, emotionally-charged argument over musical taste is often quite similar to watching a couple of middle schoolers argue about their favorite brand of sneakers. It feels important and sophisticated to the people caught up in it, but the end result is just a temporary episode of histrionic personality disorder. It's sort of like the more stereotypical forms of political correctness and language-policing, except even pettier.
     
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  22. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    You guys are confusing music genre with music ability of particular artists. One is subjective, the other is not.
     
  23. Shattered Shields
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    Shattered Shields Gratsa!

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    That means nothing. I can listen to a stoner mumbling into a microphone and say "I love this music"! That's called opinion. And opinion is not the same as fact. Simple as that.
     
  24. 123456789
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    Why don't you read about music theory and also about vocals first before you make his claim? Music is technical.
     
  25. Aaron DC
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    And that's the tone. That is the tone with which people attack 'Twilight'.”...

    :superlaugh:

    You guys hanging out with assholes again. You should stop doing that, it's warping your take on society in general.
     
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