Why is Stephanie Meyers bad at writing?

The issue is not that Edward is flawed. Hell, if his flaws were recognized, this would be a very different book. And there's the rub - his flaws aren't recognized. The message to young girls is that this is a perfect relationship. It's a pretty dangerous message.

Yeah, about that - what's a 108 year old man doing in HIGH SCHOOL?! This isn't the college aged kid that got held back a few years and is a senior. This is a 108 year old man posing as a sophomore.

I agree child abuse is a bit much, but it's absolutely creepy to get in the sack with someone you, an adult, basically helped raise. Especially considering he initially tried to hook up with her mother. It's sick. And again, it's all being presented as acceptable.

I can't tell if you're joking here. I hope you are.

 

Rowling was heavily criticized for her poor writing in the beginning. It was halfway through the series though that she started to get good. And Deathly Hallows was pretty well written.
But no matter how bad her writing was, nobody was saying that the relationship between Harry, Ron, and Hermione was abusive.

 

Abusive relationships don't need physical abuse.

But that's not the point I'm making at all. I'm saying that Meyer shows abusive themes in her books, but she passes them off as "overzealous sex" or romance.

 

I have. It was mediocre. A trashy, fun, fast read; like the original Twilight, but with aliens. Everyone still falls in love with the amazing main character who is so awesome.

No, no, see? It's totally okay because he didn't mean it.

Intent is not essential to abuse, it is possible to harass, abuse, & harm people without ever meaning to.

Aside from that, there are multiple types of recognised spousal abuse, Edward may not physically harm Bella (though he does, but I'm not arguing that point right here), but he is controlling. Controlling in the kind of way that they make PSA ads about in Australia. Check out wikipedia's articles on emotional abuse & verbal abuse.

 

Only problem I had with the books is I found them rather predictable and unoriginal in all honesty. To be honest (I am unaware if this is a book) but I just recently saw the trailer for the film Host by her and halfway through it before it the title was revealed I said to my friend that I was unaware that they were remaking Invasion of the Body Snatchers again.

Needles to say, that is my main problem with her, I don't think she is very original.

 

I think it's a bit OTT to consider their relationship as abusive. I mean one of them is a vampire, with a thirst for human blood. It's clearly not a normal relationship and I don't think you can judge it by our real world standards of relationships.

 

Out of curiosity, I tried to read the first book,just to get an idea why it is so awful and amazing at the same time. Well, to me, I skipped many things as I read and when it came to the dialogue i was just like: 'Oh freakin' God, just get it over with.' They speak about nothing and it takes pages upon pages. Edward is portrayed as the ideal boyfriend, handsome, rich, strong, romantic and 'beautiful'. the writer kept repeating that he's beautiful, it's like she wants us to believe it too. But she only got loud snorts from me.
Bella is so cold, she might as well not exist. I hated Kristin Stewart in the movies because it felt like she can't feel, but even in the books, Bella is an ice bridge.

 

Agreed, Phoenix & Ghostwolfe.

The more interesting question to ask is, "Why is this book so wildly popular?" Most people will dismiss it as simple-minded masses consuming simple literature, but I disagree. I believe there are aspects to Twilight that are well-done. Not prose, surely, which may be Meyer's biggest weakness. It is a romance story, and is successful because it does the romance well.

1) Bella is a blank, relatable character, that people can project themselves onto. "Blank" and "relatable" should be an impossible combination, and yet Meyer does appear to achieve this. This allows people to fall in vicarious love with:

2) Edward, the ideal boyfriend. He is old, which gives him maturity, and his immortality keeps him youthful in appearance. Also, he is able to accumulate a lot of wealth. Who can resist an 18-year-old guy with a fortune? He is a vampire, which gives him incredible strength to protect his woman. It also makes him lustful in two ways: sexual (he hasn't been with a woman for nearly a hundred years, if ever), and also lustful in that he wants to suck her blood. The crucial part to his lusts is that, however powerful they can get, he is in control.

I think the last part, about being in control of his lusts is the crux of the drama between Bella and Edward. As my college professor drilled, Danger + Desire = Drama. Bella desires Edward greatly, but he is very dangerous.

And I think that Meyer is exceptional at writing this dramatic relationship, because she was able to cover up rampant abusive relationship tendencies (physical, emotional, verbal, which I stated earlier in this thread) by hiding them in plain sight.

 

I'm not sure 'blank' is the key. I think 'desired' is the key. Judging from some of the fanfic, more than a few fans re-wrote Bella as a more capable character. It's also seen in the comments of people who preferred Katness in the Hunger Games.

In "50 Shades" there must be some draw for women who think being abused along with being desired is desirable. I get it that a few women would be into this, I don't get it that enough women would find that appealing as to make it a best seller. "Hold still while I do all this erotic stuff to you" probably has some, "you are the ultimate of desirable", quality in there somewhere. But the "obey me or I'll punish you" negated any appeal for me. Who wants to have sex with a parental unit? Eeewww.

I think your description of Edward is exactly right. The dangerous controlling boyfriend is also rich and powerful and there to protect the girl, not hurt her. I wonder if people who believe they see an abusive Edward (the controlling-as-abuse aside) don't understand what the core elements of abuse are. Abuse, (again defining abuse as beyond just controlling), is not about injury, it's about injury that the abuser inflicts out of disrespect, or even a desire to injure. Sure, in a common abusive situation the guilt and apology the morning after is part of the cycle, but neither of the two times Edward physically hurt Bella (to save her from Jasper and on their honeymoon) did he hurt her purposefully. If you accidentally cause an injury, that is not abuse.

With the pregnancy, where the theme is Edward caused all that suffering, you could consider that symbolic abuse. He hurts her, she's the martyr, he feels terrible guilt. Makes you wonder what it is about a guy feeling guilty we ladies enjoy? But it still results from accidental injury and that is a completely different animal from disrespectful injury.

 

For me, it's not whether or not the Bella/Edward relationship is abusive that is the problem. It's that Meyer chooses to write their relationship with themes that, in most cases, would be considered abusive.

There are differences between the B/E relationship and a real-life abusive relationship. Edward DOES mean well. He has NO desire to injure her. Also, the victim of a real-life abusive relationship is in physical/emotional/psychological pain because of the abuse, but Bella is NOT in such pain. In fact, she finds his tendencies to be romantic. She shows off her bruises with pride for their love. Because Bella finds these things desirable, we think it's okay.

But is it really okay? If Bella were real, maybe I would say, "Yes." I personally believe that love is most often unusual, rarely fitting with the conventions of "normal" love. If there was a woman who truly didn't mind getting bruised, stalked, and isolated by an overly jealous and possessive boyfriend, and actually, genuinely PREFERRED that, then more power to them for finding each other.

But Bella is NOT a real person. She is a character written by Meyer. Meyer chooses to show themes of abuse, and she chooses to make them feel romantic. She chooses to put Bella in constant danger so Edward's abusive tendencies seem excusable. That Bella doesn't mind it is irrelevant because Meyer chooses that, too. The B/E relationship illustrates the disturbing idea, "Oh, stalking, isolating, bruising, possessiveness, and jealousy are actually SUPER attractive qualities in a man."

 

Except "stalking, isolating, bruising, possessiveness, and jealousy" are not the fantasy.

That's where I differ with a lot of interpretations of Twilight. And it's just opinion, with other opinions being equally valid so don't take this as being argumentative, rather it's another perspective.

The reason I used the paradelia analogy is because it represents people pulling out certain aspects and saying this = that. A bruise that Bella doesn't mind must be abuse. Not all bruises are the result of abuse. When is stalking really protecting? OK, so maybe watching someone sleep is a bit more stalky, but when is it a secret admirer and when is it stalking? It's stalking when the stalker is creepy. It's a secret admirer when you are writing about fantasy love, the fantasy of being irresistibly desired. Edward should stay away from Bella but he can't. That's not an abuse fantasy.

And the jealousy is mostly two rivals. I had a jealous boyfriend once that was awful. He was jealous of stupid things like platonic friends. But with Edward and Jacob, they're rivals, it's different, at least as far as the reader is experiencing. It adds to Bella's desirability.

The reader can experience many things in Twilight as abusive and some readers obviously do. I don't particularly like Bella. In my ideal fantasy women have more substance than just being magically* desired. But the majority of readers are experiencing the fantasy of being desired and longing for a forbidden love. Edward is a rich, handsome, strong protector, not a jealous abuser. You can read all sorts of between-the-lines meaning in the story. The question is, are those meanings you see consistent with the emotions the reader is experiencing?

There are plenty of stories that instill poor self esteem in little girls. I'm the last one to defend stories I was raised on like Cinderella where all a girl needs is a handsome prince. I remember to this day being disgusted by one of those "Queen of the Jungle" films I saw as a kid where the supposed woman who ruled the jungle had to be rescued by a man every ~15 minutes throughout the entire film.

Spoiler

At least in the end of Twilight, Bella becomes Edward's equal, maybe even his superior, since it's her powers that protects him, her family and friends from the witch twins. At least it balances the rescuing that dominates the first 3 books. Compare that to older female characters where the rescue themes always dominated clear through to the end.

*magically as in inexplicably

 

Ginger,

If I sound really argumentive, don't take it personally I just get that way about some things. I find your opinions very challenging (in a good way, of course).

Let me make this statement clear: The Bella/Edward romance is NOT an abusive relationship. This, I think, we can agree. It's not abusive Bella is okay with it, and because a lot of it is Edward trying to save Bella from actual danger. But what if she wasn't really in danger? What if she was really upset by him stalking her, isolating her, bruising her accidentally? What if Jacob was really just a platonic friend? The answer is probably either Edward would act very differently (no stalking, isolating, etc) and they would have a happy relationship, or he would act the same (for no good reason, now) and Bella would leave him. This story revolves around these elements, and without the danger and/or Bella's approval, it becomes an abusive relationship.

And I think what is most upsetting to me is how there is so little conflict between Bella and Edward about his tendencies. She just sort of accepts that he stalks her around (he doesn't just watch her sleep), isolates her, etc. in the name of protecting her. As far as I know, she never says, "Yo, not cool. I make my own decisions, and you gotta respect that."

Also, it is irrelevant how the majority of readers respond to the work, because majority doesn't determine what's okay and what isn't. And just because there are other stories that are worse for impressionable little girls than Twilight doesn't automatically mean Twilight is okay. Compare Bella with some excellent female characters in contemporary YA, such as Hermione Granger, Katniss Everdeen, and Hazel Grace Lancaster from The Fault in Our Stars (as well as Princess Merida from "Brave"), and Bella becomes much closer to Cinderella on the feminist scale of kickassery.

 

You don't sound argumentative. I just wanted to be sure I didn't.

If we aren't challenged , what fun is that? And, I'm pretty sure we do see eye to eye here on the cliché female character that is measured by the man she attracts.

Have you read the online version of, "Midnight Sun, Edward's Version of Twilight"? Meyer says she got angry it was leaked so she never finished it or published it. Anyway, Edward wants to go away rather than put Bella at risk. He does leave in New Moon. So I just don't see the angle of what-if you are pondering here.

The only isolating I recall was fearing the wolves loss of control and Emily was proof of that. But you're choir preaching on the 'Bella really should have been more annoyed'.

I only refer to what the readers see because it goes to the assessment of abuse or not abuse. If the readers are fantasizing a protector, it's hard to see that as fantasizing unrecognized abuse. Now, take 50 Shades, anyone reading that fantasy has to recognize the abuse. There's nothing subliminal about it.

And take the stereotypical female rescue fantasy, the fantasy is right there on the face of it, not hidden somewhere. Young girls may not realize the implications of the rescue element, but it's not like they believe they are rescuing the guy when it's really the girl being rescued. So if the reader doesn't recognize abuse in Twilight, I can't see that some kind of subliminal message, "real girls enjoy abuse", is leaking into their brains.

Contrast that with the impact other stories have on a developing mind. Disney princesses do all kinds of damage to some girls (I escaped with just a few small scars ). The message in the story, girls are valued by having a prince want you, is harmful, IMO. The newer Disney stories like "Brave" at least are addressing the problem even if the marketing of Disney Princesses is completely counter productive. But that's a whole different thread and I'm digressing.

So putting those thoughts together, Twilight suffers from the same problem, the girl is defined by the guy wanting her. In that respect, it's problematic as you are noting. I just make a distinction between 'a girl's value is based on a guy wanting her', and 'a girl is shown enjoying (and not recognizing) an abusive relationship'.

 

I think we can change most stories and make a good person bad with a bunch of ifs. Imagine a short love story between 2 people going like this: " Mandy loves Andy. Andy told his wife Mandy that she means the world to him. Mandy felt appreciated hearing those words ". This is not abuse since Mandy like hearing those things. But what if his wife had told him before not to say that to her? And what if he keeps saying it every day just to annoy her? This would make him an abusive person that doesn’t respect her wish and what message would that send to young girls, that this is normal or accepted?

I think you said it best yourself, its not an abusive relationship (its not - as long as we don't add a bunch of IFs, but is it fair criticism to change someone elses story and then criticise it for the changes you made?). Why try to make the story into somthing that it is not?

 

Ginger, you didn't sound argumentive either, which made me wonder why you brought it up. So I thought maybe I was Ironic.

I totally agree with you that Twilight suffers from that same "Save The Princess" problem. She has no ability to save herself or others until the final book, when she gets a superpower.

Let us compare Twilight to other stories with the same "Save The Princess" problem. In Snow White, Cinderella, Aerial, Rapunzel, Pocahontas, Belle, etc., NONE of their princes were jealous or possessive. Not one prince, in order to protect his princess, had to stalk her, destroy her car, etc. Not one criticized her decisions. They found other ways to save their princess (i.e., going out and defeating the bad guy). I'm not saying that these stories are in the right, but I am saying they at least don't have a character like Edward. Twilight has the same problems as the "Save The Princess" stories, but it has one more: Tell-tale signs of an abusive relationship.

Just because Bella enjoys Edward's tendencies doesn't mean it's okay. She's written to enjoy them. Is it okay that disney princesses are written to enjoy being constantly saved by the big strong prince? That they are written to enjoy being objectified as beauty?

And Slamdunk, The tell-tale signs of an abusive relationship are there, in the story. He is jealous and overly possessive. A boyfriend in real life that monitors text messages and emails EVEN IF it's a real rival, is a relationship abuser. Edward monitors her the same, just not with text messages or emails. He stalks her, in the first book physically and later with his telepathy. He destroys her car, to isolate her. These are tell-tale signs of abuse. It's not abuse only because Bella is written to enjoy it.

I'm not saying that the message is "real girls like abuse," I'm saying that it is "real girls like the tell-tale signs of abuse so long as they are being used to save her."




P.S.What hasn't been brought up in a while is Jacob's imprinting on Bella's child. That's straight-up child-grooming. Yes, there is a fantastical element to it because Jacob is a werewolf and that's what werewolves do. Fine, if he were imprinting on a werewolf baby. But he's not - Bella's daughter is half-vampire, half-human. She does not have the imprinting ability, and so she is still the victim in the situation. Take away Jacob's imprinting ability and you have a creepy man falling in love with a baby. It is indeed a different story, but the baby is the victim both times.

 

I'm enjoying the discussion. I'm interested in looking at the core elements of Twilight. I have a personal motive re my novel. I want my protagonist to draw people in, but be a better female character than these nothings defined by the man's attraction to them.

Are you aware of the Beauty and the Beast controversy?

IOW, the beast is an abuser and Belle just needs to be good enough and he will change. Other people don't see it that way. They see Belle refusing to be abused. I'm on the fence when it come to B&theB, but I'm leaning toward the, 'he's abusive and the theme is, Belle can fix him'.

You might find this blog entry mildly interesting: Disney: Teaching Girls To Live With Violence Since 1923. I absolutely love the Disney Princess captions. It's probably obvious by now I'm not a fan of Disney's impact on little girls. I'm cynical that Brave is simply a response to the market and not a reflection of any real social conscience. Better than nothing, but not a reflection of any real change in the Disney board room.

You're conflating how I see Edward and whether something is 'OK' or not. From my perspective, Bella was redeemed when Meyer made her the hero in the last book. Up until that point it was the standard rescue fantasy, but I still don't see any abuse aspect to it other than Edward being in control of everything.

We'll just have to agree to disagree here. Where you see a face, I see nothing more than paradelia.

You lost me here.

I don't buy the controversy about child grooming. It's clear in both the books and the final movie that Jacob is a brother/father to Renesme until she grows up and they are both the same age. People that freak about the 'he loves an infant, eeewww' refuse to accept the story premise about imprinting. I don't have that problem with it.

 

Did you read the articles I linked? You don't get to redefine "abuse" to make it fit this scenario. Do you think Fritzl had anything but his daughter's best interests at heart when he locked her in a basement for twenty-four years & fathered seven children on her? The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as they say.

 

Controlling behavior IS abuse.

Source: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/201206/emotional-abuse-intimate-partners

Source: http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/pub-res/ipv_surveillance/11_section34.htm

Source: http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/abusiverelationships/a/control_abuse.htm

And, from your article:

Source: http://www.brown.uk.com/brownlibrary/BEAST.htm

Of course, I still maintain that there are more abusive behaviors in the story than just controlling behavior, but I wanted to focus on this part for now, since you do agree it happens. I strongly recommend you read the links I put in my first post. They are written much clearer than I can paraphrase (and I've been reading your links, after all).

And I see cognitive dissonance with you. You can stomach a little "Save The Princess" sexism, especially since she "redeems" herself in the final book. No cognitive dissonance there. But while you like the books, you abhor the abuse of women, and you can't bring yourself to cope with the idea that you like a book that has persistent elements of abuse, so you avoid reading the links GhostWolfe and I posted, you redefine abuse to fit your means, and you assert that I'm simply suffering from pareidolia.

 

I'm not redefining abuse, and you are misunderstanding what I mean by intent. If Edward accidentally hurt Bella pushing her out of danger, that is not analogous in any way with locking someone up for their own good.

I don't think you understand my point of view and that's OK.

 

Which is why I've made a point of saying I'm referring to the claims of physical abuse and not the control issue.

 

I'm not sure this deserves a response except to point out, you can't possibly know a person in this kind of detail from reading 34 of their forum posts.