Why is Stephanie Meyers bad at writing?

Discussion in 'Discussion of Published Works' started by drifter265, Feb 28, 2013.

  1. funkybassmannick

    funkybassmannick New Member

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    I'm not claiming to know you, just presenting a hypothesis. Your hypothesis was that I was suffering from pareidolia. Sorry if I offended you, though.
     
  2. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Pareidolia is not a 'condition', it was meant as an analogy.

    Let's break this down because we do agree for the most part.

    Is Edward controlling? Yes, and the story sets a bad example for girls in that respect.

    Is he overly jealous? Eh, I don't think every story with two people who are rivals for the same lover is one of jealousy. Two rivals are often jealous of each other. I don't see the big deal there.

    Does he isolate Bella? I'm not even sure where people get this from. The whole thing about the wolves being dangerous explains Edward's behavior and he doesn't isolate Bella from anyone else (that I recall anyway).

    Is Edward physically abusive? I don't see it, even symbolically, as I've explained.

    Are there other negative themes for women in the story? Absolutely. Bella's greatest quality is being nice, and magically attractive, it's time for this theme in romance fantasies to be addressed.

    And something not mentioned in this thread yet is the whole value of having a baby as a measure of ultimate achievement, also not the best image for girls. That gets into the character of Rosalie whose biggest regret is not having a baby and Leah, whose lack of ovulating makes her closer to a male, and also undesirable to Sam who imprints on Emily instead.


    I'm reading that the main place we are in disagreement is simply the physically abusive thing. Is that correct? And we are a little apart on the jealousy and isolating thing, but that's more a matter of degree than a substantive disagreement.
     
  3. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    One of the goals in my novel is to have a realistic female protag. But I also want to balance that with the romance fantasy. Edward has flaws, Bella is inadequate, but there's still some kind of guilty pleasure there even for someone with fairly strong feminist beliefs. If we just write it off as having an underlying abuse theme running through it without looking at what the draw to the story is, I think that does a disservice to women as well.

    One needs to tease out the draw from the negative influences. I don't see a young girl who reads Twilight coming away thinking an abusive relationship is sexy. I do see her coming away thinking a woman is defined by her man, a woman's greatest accomplishment is a baby, a man values you mostly for your beauty, and you need a man to protect you. Those are the negative themes I see in Twilight.

    But you can't ignore the draw: two people with undying love for each other. We just need to bring that back to reality. In my novel the lovers are partners and value the other's input. That contrasts with the parents of one, where the father dominates the mother and the mother doesn't speak up. I purposefully left physical abuse out of the parent's relationship so it was more clear this was the dynamic between them, not something the father created with threat of violence. My parents were like that and there was no violence in my home. They didn't even spank us.
     
  4. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Isn't this theme virtually everywhere in the media?
     
  5. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Of course, which is why it needs more attention called to it.

    There's an equally problematic theme for guys who need to be physically strong to be attractive virtually everywhere in the media.
     
  6. ManOrAstroMan

    ManOrAstroMan Magical Space Detective Contributor

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    I read the first one as part of a book-trade with a friend at work. She read Maskerade by Terry Pratchett, and I read Twilight.
    If I was 100% honest, I actually kind of wanted to read the books. I like vampires, Gothic horror, supernatural thrillers, that kind of thing.
    I was disappointed.
    I think the first book had some decent bones to it, but wasn't fleshed out properly. I, personally, would have done it a bit differently: add a touch of X-Files/Scooby-Doo when it came to learning the Cullens were vampires; make (whatshisname, the blonde vamp guy) a bigger threat, someone who's lurking around the edges of the whole story instead of just showing up at the end; more Mysterious Deaths.
    And no body glitter.
    I tried to read the second book but could barely finish. Every time one of Bella's suicide attempts failed, I was disappointed.
    I only saw about ten minutes of the first movie before changing over to something more enriching (I think it was Spongebob...), and was dragged by family members to see Breaking Wind--er, Dawn--part 1 in theaters. ("Come on, guys, you don't want to watch Immortals? Or Puss in Boots?") On top of it being a horrible movie, the only available seats were in the very front row, so you could only see one of Edward's nostrils at a time, the kid behind me had fidgety feet, and someone a couple of rows back had smuggled booze in, which made me berate myself for not doing the same.
    I think, aside from Edward and Jacob's overall creep factor as far as Bella and Renesme (the name alone is child abuse), the biggest problems people seemed to have is with the vampire mythology and the way it was handled. The vampires were way overpowered, the sparkling was ridiculous, and there really wasn't much in the way of paranormality (if that wasn't a word before, it is now). You can't make a story about vampires be so sugary. They were presented with no dark side, other than the Vulturies (or whatever). Vampires are supposed to BE the dark side of the human psyche personified.
    Maybe if she had tried to make them anything other than vampires, It wouldn't have been so bad, but she tried to compromise and they just came off as boring and slightly molesty.
     
  7. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I like a lot of your observations, AstroMan. I also agree concentrating all Jame's threat in the end seemed unbalanced.
     
  8. Scribblefae

    Scribblefae New Member

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    @Gingercoffee: first off, cudos to your way of writing. You really are discussing issues/ideas/views you have of the book or others have and not coming off as someone who wants to go into battle and come out first.

    Now a few things I'd like to add to your points if you don't mind that is.

    Bella actually does have a power which is already there when she is still human. A vampire which uses a power to control the ' mind' has no effect on her. Edward can't read her thoughts, she can't be hurt by Jane of the Volturi, she can't be manipulated through the mind in a supernatural way :). Pretty ironic if you consider that when she is a vampire she can stand up to any vampire who uses mind control in a super natural way. When she is human, she even becomes a sort of 'must have' object for Aro of the Volturi because of this so called gift.

    Later on she uses this power as a vampire to conjure up a shield. This shield protects others as well and is the reason the vampires and wolves don't get hurt in the finale battle part in the book and story. The battle doesn't really happen it's just Alice's vision which you see in the movie and which was left out in the book. As for her agreeing to being 'raped' by Jacob as I've seen in a number of reviews on Twilight. They were talking about Jacob forcing herself upon Bella to kiss her. She proceeded to punch him in the face but breaks her hand because his face is as hard as a brick wall to a human.

    As for Bella not responding to things in a 'normal way', as in, she looked like she was an ice cube rather than human. I actually liked that she did not flail around like mad at the sight of a vampire. To me she felt like that shy girl you'd either know as being bullied around and having no backbone at all because of it or the close friend who actually wants to be your friend instead of doing it for shits and giggles. She does panic more in the books than in the films but Kirsten Stewart portrayed her for who she was.

    Another thing I saw, was a complaint about Bella not responding at all to her transition to a vampire and that is was smooth sailing. What I recall from the movie as well as the book is that you see Bella all calm and serene, laying on an operating table in a beautiful blue dress. Than the camera shifts to the inside of her mind? and you hear agonizing screams over and over and over. Not so smooth at all I believe.

    What I liked about the movie ending, is that they included Alice's vision at the end. It had me at the edge of my seat. But then you see Bella really springing into action. She did try to go after Jacob for imprinting on Renesmee, trying to kill him. It got worse after he called her Nessie haha! Edward wasn't at all pleased with Jacob either after he heard it. She defeats the brawniest of the Cullens, Emmett, with a friendly test of strength and she crushes Edward a bit when she hugs him. But I'm derailing here. What I wanted to say is that you see Bella in the end as a strong woman, defending herself and others. As oppose to the spineless girl she was at the beginning of the series. I really liked how those scriptwriters changed the ending seeing as I didn't really like the ending in the book.

    As for Disney and the stories they copied and changed from the Grim Brothers and Hans Christian Andersen. Did you know Ariel(she didn't have a name in the original story) killed herself at the end of the original story? The prince married a different woman. Ariel was given a knife with which she could kill the prince to become a real mermaid again. Instead she choose to 'kill herself' by jumping into the sea and turning to foam. Later Andersen changed the story to a slightly more pleasant ending in which she wants to go to heaven and become a daughter of the air. Still dead as a doornail and she did not have a choice. That's not a good example for children.

    But there are so many things not good for children. I remember a children's movie called: Watership Down. In which you could see hares killing each other and being killed by trains or hunters. On top of that you saw the blood and gore. As far as I know, hares don't kill each other.

    A question I actually would like to ask is this. The definition of literature includes everything written in either prose or poetry form or created as art. (I know it's a bit more extensive but this is basically it). Then what defines good literature? Does it depend on a number of things because people in the olden days defined it in that way as good literature? Is it an opinion? Or is it in the eye of the beholder? I know quite a few artists/writers who did not become popular until after they died and were considered legends en great entrepreneurs. So what makes them great now?

    Why do people pay thousands of dollars for a painting that only has a 'dot' on it? What is that based on?

    Last but not least. I consider J.R.R Tolkien a great story teller but it takes me great difficulty to actually get passed his very detailed descriptions of the different species living in his fantasy world. Does that make him a bad writer because I think that? Or does it make him a bad writer when thousands of people think it? Or does it make me a very bad reader because very detailed descriptions are not my cup of tea?

    @ManorMAstro: I don't think bella tries to commit suicide in the book. She figured out, that she would see an image of Edward and hear his voice if she did something dangerous. It wasn't actually Edward but a figment of her imagination. She does not try to kill herself. I think the only point when she does try it is at the part where she jumps off the cliff and it looks like she's going to drown. That's when she gives up and wants to die. Before she only wanted to see and hear Edward.

    Hmm I wonder why people seem to want to see only overly 'dark' vampires. I don't think the vampires were overpowering because of the wolves also being added to the story. A newborn vampire was no match for the wolves even though they are supposedly the strongest types apart from the Volturi. I understand that an image has been created by the writer who turned the separate stories of vampires into a great work of literature and is still a great inspiration for vampire stories. However, does that mean that a vampire should always act like the archetype and look like the archetype to be 'real' vampires? John William Polidori didn't invent vampires. He combined pieces about Vampirism into one book and was the first to make a coherent story out of it.

    The things Meyers used are actually more realistic to nature as in the 'predator' type of animal. I see the shine they have as a trait which was inspired by things like the Angler fish or the gigantic flesh eating plant. Those predators, use their exterior to attract their prey. The giant flesh eating plant smells like a decaying corpse to us but smells like absolute heaven to flies and other insects. The Angler fish uses the 'light' to attract his prey, when you see what the fish really looks like, you'd be running for the hills if you were a small clown fish.

    The 'beauty' in the Meyers version of the vampires appeals to that. They are so attractive on the outside that no human(prey) can resist them. The venom even adds to this theory.

    However I do get your point and I also think that if she would've turned them into something else people wouldn't be going all over this like they do now. I myself don't judge a book like this. What do you mean with, there was no paranormal side to the vampires? I myself consider mind-reading, seeing the future, super human strenght, speed and so on pretty paranormal. What is your view on that? :)
     
  9. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Thank you. I've come here from one of the many forum battle fronts determined to find more peace and quiet.

    I agree Bella isn't written as a complete nothing-but-beauty character. I commented earlier that she ends up saving Edward and her family in the end. You are correct to point out these other story events.

    Not sure who all had these particular complaints but they weren't observations of mine.


    Grimm stories were very Grimm indeed. Makes me curious about how horrible life was for children back then.

    My brother was a Watership Down fan. He never convinced me to read the it.


    It's fascinating to ponder, would the Brothers Grimm works be seen as good literature if someone wrote it today? A lot of fairy tales with ancient roots are just that, stories with 'who knows how far back or where' origins. Cinderella is one such story.


    A fad. :)
     
  10. GhostWolfe

    GhostWolfe New Member

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    Yeah, my bad. It was the first example I could think of.

    Edward forbids Bella from seeing Jacob & even acts threateningly towards her when she spends time with him. This is an extremely common sign of spousal abuse.

    Uh, no, we're worlds apart here.

    I found this (google "twilight" and "abuse" & you'll find a lot of these types of blogs and posts):
     
  11. SuperVenom

    SuperVenom Senior Member

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    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Best not to dwell on the small grievances of this book. It was successful. Yes it could be said it did some injustices to the vampire genre, but we are always told on here dont be afraid of your ideas. Some will like others will not. There probably is some professional jealously at the success and even towards the characters. What guy isn't jealous of the fantasy male our ladies are swooning over. But we should do our best to learn what makes a novel successful and what we can do to make the said novel one that isnt a hate figure. I don't think Stephine was a bad writer, there are plenty worse but her stories hit different nerves in different people. Remember all us budding writers on here, we might write a novel that although successful could come at a price, and how would we feel? Enjoy writing but not at the expense of belittling other pieces. We're bigger than that.
     
  12. Kaidonni

    Kaidonni Member

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    Thought I'd contribute to this thread because of this bit. I think you should take a moment to research the original novel of Watership Down before passing judgement. It started out as something Richard Adams told his daughters on a long trip to Stoke on Trent. They encouraged him to write it down, and that's where his novel writing career started. It's a children's story that does have dark subjects, but they are treated extremely well in the book. It's a classic for a reason, and is certainly suitable for young readers. It was even inspired by Richard Adams' experiences in World War 2 around Arnhem.

    Also, they're rabbits*, not hares. They are written with semi-Human minds - they exhibit a lot of rabbit behaviour throughout the story, but are relatable to because they aren't just rabbits written as rabbits. Mind you...

    ...they are rather sexist. At one point, when they need to dig holes for the night, they have trouble coming to terms with the concept of male rabbits doing it. Only does do this usually. Male chauvenist, er...pigs! Wait, that's not right...mice? Rats? Weasels? Rabbits? Ah, rabbits, yes.

    *You're lucky the rabbits of Efrafa didn't catch you saying that! What an insult it would be! :D

    Besides, don't even get me started on certain books/animated series like The Animals of Farthing Wood - most shows these days are tame compared to that, and it was great.
     
  13. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    It's also explained by Emily's scar.


    Pareidolia, just my opinion.

    Does your partner:

    * Look at you or act in ways that scare you?

    Check.
    But in the case of Edward, the scary stuff ends in the beginning. After that, Bella's not afraid of him at all.

    * Control what you do, who you see or talk to or where you go?
    "Stay away from the werewolves. I love you."
    "Wolves are unpredictable", which they were. Was my father abusive to tell me not to get in a car with a drunk driver?

    * Make all of the decisions?
    Check.
    I think a good relationship is defined by a partnership. A lot of couples have an unbalanced relationship. I don't like to see it. But if this is one's criteria of abuse it applies to the majority of couples in the world.

    * Act like the abuse is no big deal, it's your fault, or even deny doing it?
    "If I wasn't so attracted to you, I wouldn't have to break up with you."
    Edward left Bella to protect her and you see that as blaming Bella? I don't see it that way.

    * Threaten to commit suicide?
    "I just can't live without you. In fact, I'll run to Italy and try suicide by vampire if anything happens to you."
    But he did not do this to manipulate Bella. Big difference.

    * Threaten to kill you?
    On their first date.
    It was symbolic of forbidden, dangerous love, not hidden abuse. It's a very common theme in literature.

    These are some more signs of an abusive relationship.
    Has your partner...

    * Tried to isolate you from family or friends.

    Bella doesn't have time for anyone else!
    You'll have to be more specific because I don't recall any 'isolate Bella' scenes in the book.

    * Damaged property when angry (thrown objects, punched walls, kicked doors, etc.).
    Check.
    Yes, and he removed himself from the room before expressing his anger.

    * Pushed, slapped, bitten, kicked or choked you.
    Does tossing her through a glass table count?
    No. Would pushing your love to the ground to get her out of the way of a moving vehicle count?

    * Abandoned you in a dangerous or unfamiliar place.
    "We're breaking up. And I'm leaving you in the forest."
    You don't have the scene right. Edward left Bella next to her house. It was after he left that Bella wandered into the woods.

    * Scared you by driving recklessly.
    Check.
    Vampires don't crash their cars.

    * Forced you to leave your home.
    She had to run away with him to flee from the other vampires in the first movie, and she had to drop everything and run to Italy in the second.
    Re Phoenix, Bella said no, she was worried about Charlie and Edward accommodated her. Going to Phoenix was not something Edward manipulated Bella into doing. And how do you even figure he made her go to Italy?

    * Prevented you from calling police or seeking medical attention.
    Check. Even in the hospital, nothing is a big deal.
    I have no idea what you are referring to here. :confused:

    * Views women as objects and believes in rigid gender roles.
    Well, they are Mormon... (I know, I know, cheap shot.)
    So if a story is set in 1910 are you going to hold the men to 2010 standards of women's lib?

    * Accuses you of cheating or is often jealous of your outside relationships.
    Check, wolf-boy.
    When did Edward ever accuse Bella of cheating? :confused: Just before the fight at the end of Eclipse, Edward even accepts the fact Bella loves Jacob and Edward isn't angry with her. That's the opposite of abusive jealously. Is every story where two men are rivals for one woman stories of abuse if the men are jealous of each other?

    Edward didn't respect Bella's opinion not to tell Jacob about the engagement, but that's hardly the definition of abuse.

    According to the NDVH, "If you answered ‘yes' to even one of these questions, you may be in an abusive relationship." This list is fifteen. Pareidolia, you are seeing something that isn't there. Just my opinion. I don't deny you the right to yours, I just respectfully disagree.
     
  14. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I like your point of view.

    EL James, definitely a worse writer than Meyer, but even 50 Shades had some well written scenes.

    You're not supposed to be jealous of the fantasy guy, you're supposed to fantasize you are that guy. ;)

    It's kind of my point, looking at what was good about Twilight and what was not because when I finish my novel, I want people to enjoy the fantasy. And I want my female protag to be a different role model for girls. My lovers are partners, the relationship mutual, not lopsided with the guy protecting her from everything.
     
  15. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I just thought of something writing that last post, there are other relationships in the story. Carlisle is the patriarch, and Esme is not an equal partner. But when it comes to Alice and Rosalie, they seem to be the more dominant halves of their pairs.
     
  16. SuperVenom

    SuperVenom Senior Member

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    I cant sparkle :p
     
  17. Xatron

    Xatron New Member

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    EL James is just a bad writer. S Meyers is abysmal. Even my 8 year old brother is a better writer than her. He knows more grammar too.
     
  18. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    That's really awesome! Let us know as soon as your 8 yo brother sells 10 million copies of his first book. It shouldn't be long since he is that good.
     
  19. Xatron

    Xatron New Member

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    I won't dignify this with an actual answer. g.a.b.
     

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