Why isn't more YA made for boys?

Discussion in 'Children's & Young Adult' started by Bright Shadow, Apr 11, 2011.

  1. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu New Member

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    @L. H. J. ~Well I heartily welcome you to the discussion, we just dealt with that, and the result was that your hypothesis was disproved, in the future could you please look at the most recent posts before responding? It would prevent the endless running over of old ground.

    @Marina~I ran that article through my normal e tests, I could find nothing on the author's political views, or enough of a bio on him to confirm or deny any bias he may or may not have. [Result; assume no bias unless shown by the piece]
    Sources are not cited so I am compelled to ignore most sited statistical studies, as they cannot be verified.
    Louann Brizendine also sited has as far as I can tell a subpar track record on the issue of spoken language, I would be very skeptical of her on issues of linguistics and communication, [and books are a form of communication]
    I did however note the closing line of the piece,
    (Please note that this is a veritable study, and as it's market research [with acquires title to sales] I can find no logical reason to doubt it]
    This supports the idea that when exposed to books they like boys are far more likely to read, and it's unquestionable the fact that most boys have a hard time [bordering on impossible] finding books they like in YA.

    It is true and regrettable that many people regardless of gender do not read, however I believe we can ignore those people for the purpose of this issue.

    I have seen no data that says this and it contradicts my personal experience directly.

    No one had framed this issue in those terms, if you begin to say such thing you must be warned that they will result in the degradation of this discussion, no necessarily through my actions or even your actions, but through the loss in objectivity caused intrinsically by the banding around of such words as 'sexist'.

    That said I would respond by asking why you feel the need to defend your self against such a charge, Have you been called that in the past? [Note; that would make me instantly suspicious unless it could be shown that the charge had no merit] Another common reason could be that you are sexist [NOT ACUSING YOU] and thus feel the need to defend from a charge that has every basis in fact. Or perhaps is it that your position is one commonly taken by people who are sexist, or that they would agree with because of their sexism. [Again a serious red flag] The only other reason I can think of would be if I had called people sexist in the past without reason [I have not ever referred in the past at any time to anyone as sexist], or that someone else with my position on this issue [who is also in the discussion] had. That would in this case mean Bright Shadow and I just personally read every post of his on this forum he also has done nothing of the kind.
    [Note the reason may be subconscious, but from a psychological standpoint it must be one of the above]
     
  2. Silver_Dragon

    Silver_Dragon New Member

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    I meant to add that among those who did read, I found it was pretty much equally male and female students, and that they read a variety of things rather than just YA. I did not find--as Brightshadow suggested--that all the guys were reading adult fiction while most girls were just interested in glossy magazines.
     
  3. bumblebot

    bumblebot New Member

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    Which came first, though, a drop in male readership or fewer YA books for guys?
     
  4. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    When I was a the YA age level, I was reading almost exclusively adult fiction, and so was every other guy I knew. Maybe it's just reading habits, as others have mentioned. It is possible that girls are simply more likely to read novels that involve young adults and YA issues. I don't know.
     
  5. Bright Shadow

    Bright Shadow Member

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    That's my question. I mean, once upon a time, before I was born or at least before I was old enough to read, Robert E. Heinlein paid his bills by writing YA sci fi, and I'm sure the major readership of his books were boys. I did read "Red Planet" when I was thirteen, and "Starship Troopers" later on, in High school (the movie was NOTHING like the book, btw)

    It is kind of a "chicken or the egg" question.
     
  6. marina

    marina Contributor Contributor

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    bumblebot: I don't know that there was ever a time when there was a lot of YA books for guys, or at least not in the last 5-10 years.

    Cthulhu: I'd rather not log in to my uni's library site and do a jstor search in order to provide the evidence you're asking for (saying this jokingly). But there has been a good deal of articles online talking about the gender gap. There was a recent study by the Center of Educ Policy that found a gap in reading scores of boys v. girls in achievement exams in every state in the U.S. Also, more women are graduating from high school and college in the U.S. than men, which lends credence to the claim of a gender gap in reading.

    You ought to research the issue on your own if you're particularly interested in it.
     
  7. Bright Shadow

    Bright Shadow Member

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    I think that it's more to do with the way YA is. It's so...insulting. Teenage vampires? Give me a break!

    Now, if someone made a YA book, fast paced and with a teen MC, who finds out that his father died while researching a mysterious clay tablet that shows a monster with an octopus head and gets obsessed, and does his own research, leading him to sneak away from home and visit a town called "Innsmouth" that's all broken down and spray painted on the side of the derelict City Hall isn't regular gang graffiti, but a message that reads,
    "It is not that, that which can eternal lie, and through the passages of strange eons, even death may die

    Now THAT would be a YA novel I would have read.


    Nobody steal my idea! I stole it first...
     
  8. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    Tough I already wrote it except his father was shot in the back by his sister after the boat he was on was torpedoed.
     
  9. Bright Shadow

    Bright Shadow Member

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    Now, let's assume for one minute that more women than men do read and it's at all grade levels. That brings up another issue: anyone can see that men are more interested in sports than women are, but, we still have girls teams in sports in school. Companies still market female athletic goods. Why? Because there is a market. There are young females who play sports.

    Now, are you saying there is no market for boys who read? Is the literacy rate of young males so low that there isn't a profit to be made in publishing fiction that they would want to read?

    Or, maybe companies just know boys don't read YA and instead focus on adult fiction that is still kind of marketed for them...take a look at this book cover of one of the books that just about every male nerd read in high school and maybe ten females world wide have ever cracked opened:

    http://www.amazon.com/dp/0786939532/?tag=postedlinks04-20
    [/URL]

    Funny, it says "reading level, young adult", but it isn't in the YA section.

    Now, just as you really don't need a study to show that the majority of the readership of Twilight was teenage girls, you really don't need a study to show that majority of the readers of the Drizzt books are teenage boys. Some things in life just go without saying.

    My question is, why the charade? Why not just call it YA and be done with it?
     
  10. marina

    marina Contributor Contributor

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    One word: Incarceron
     
  11. marina

    marina Contributor Contributor

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    I'm not saying anything other than that I believe a gender gap in readers does exist. I think boys/guys who read are picking up graphic novels and adult fiction because the YA genre has become so feminized.
     
  12. Buggy

    Buggy New Member

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    Has anyone mentioned how insulting this post can be taken? As a girl who read a lot growing up, I'm surprised that this means I was easily taken in by mundane plot lines. To typify an entire gender as ignorant and glorify young boys as too intelligent to waste time on silly YA books is sort of silly. Whose to say young boys aren't reading Twilight, holed up in their bedrooms, with a playboy magazine in front of the cover, just in case?
    Aside from that, there are sports to consider. Society provides more male-focused sports in schools, and boys are still more encouraged to show their manliness on the field, rather bury their nose in a book. Which is silly in the exact opposite way. Everyone should just stop trying to segregate people into to equal but opposite gender categories. Just write some good books aimed at everybody.
     
  13. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    I agree with Buggy - I read Jane Eyre at nine, tackled Hotel du Lac at twelve. From teh age of eight I was addicted to Agatha Christie. I still read children's and YA books.

    At thirty-five I still read the Hardy Boys, Spy Dog, Pamela Brown, Enid Blyton and other great stories. I adore Winnie the Witch, The Gruffalo and a Pipkin of Pepper (illustrated children's books). A good story is a good story whereever you find it. The Chalet School is fun. I adore Harry Potter and Across the Nightingale Floor. I do like Alex Sanchez. Joan Lingards books are YA have you read them not exactly girl specific ? Judy Blume wrote Tales of Fourth Grade Nothing and Superfudge. Fantastic. I remember a wonderful book about a single teen father can't remember the title baby was called Mason. Catcher in the Rye is awful but it is a boys book. Sure I can think of others if my mind wanders back twenty years a bit more. Narnia is not a girls book. The Hobbit, The Guardians, The Machine Gunners etc Honestly I don't get why you think it is any harder to wade through the books in the library for a boy to find a good book than it is for a girl.

    Honestly if you have decided you are too 'intelligent' to read children's books or 'girls' books all you are doing is missing out on some good stories. Most of the books are not girls books.

    I have written a fast paced book with a teen boy in the lead role.
     
  14. Eunoia

    Eunoia Contributor Contributor

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    I think YA does seem to be more noticeable for girls, particularly recently because of this whole vampire craze, but also it's easier to market. But there are plenty of YA books out there, and I think boys tend to read a lot of sci-fi/fantasy (I know that's a generalisation) so they might go for books aimed at adults anyway so a YA book isn't necessarily what they need. There are YA books for boys though, take Slam by Nick Hornby - that's about teenage pregnancy but from a boy's point of view I think. I'm sure if you really looked in bookshops, there will be YA books for boys hidden amongst all the apparently girly ones.
     
  15. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    One possibility might be my arguement in another thread about spine colour - the colours used on boys books don't stand out as well on a library shelves as the rainbow or glittery colours often used on girls books. Doesn't mean they haven't been written or published, just they don't stand out as much. Boys read Harry Potter it has in the UK at least a cover that is easily spotted on the shelves.

    Even when I was a teen - Nancy Drew and the Chalet School were much brighter than the boys books couldn't miss them on the shelves. Malory Towers and St Clares were brighter than the Adventure Series (I know these are junior fiction can't remember the YA covers as clearly) - girls ones tended to have more green or turquoise on them, boys dirty yellowy beige colour and black. Roald Dahl was darker than Pamela Brown etc
     
  16. Silver_Dragon

    Silver_Dragon New Member

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    That sums up my feelings on the issue. And honestly, not all YA is crap...The Hunger Games has lots of female readers, which suggests that teenage girls are in fact interested in things other than makeup and Justin Bieber. I could pull a poorly-written video game novelization off the shelves and generalise about the audience of those books, which are mostly intended for boys, but it wouldn't be fair...because how am I to know what the majority of boys are reading? Many of my current female friends were avid readers in high school and read lots of adult fiction when they were teens.
     
  17. Eunoia

    Eunoia Contributor Contributor

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    I agree that some YA isn't very good, or rather the ones aimed at girls just don't appeal to a lot of girls. I don't like the particularly girly books about make up and fashion and oh my god, I need a boyfriend etc. So yes, not all girls want to read the YA books aimed at girls, and YA shouldn't be categorised into genders as much.
     
  18. Bright Shadow

    Bright Shadow Member

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    Okay, I get what you're saying. I'm not saying girls are stupid, just saying that there seems to be a noticeable tilt in current YA aimed at girls. Whether the aim hits the mark, I can't say. I do know quite a few girls who hate Twilight with a passion to rival Bin Laden's hatred of the US.

    I'm not saying boys couldn't read a book that involves a romance, just saying that Twilight is a bad example. Not joking, but unless they're gay (which is fine by me) boys probably will not like Twilight. 90% of the book is talking about how good looking a boy is. The vast majority of heterosexual boys will not find that interesting.

    Thing is, hardcore jocks are hardcore jocks and just about everything takes a back seat to sports. Boys play video games, we know this, but jocks very rarely play video games, reason being they're too busy being jocks and playing sports to get into WOW or something.

    I don't think sports are about manliness as much as it's about fun and comraderie. Not to mention all the girls sports.


    Good in theory, but in practice certain things just appeal more to certain genders.
     
  19. Bright Shadow

    Bright Shadow Member

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    Which is one of the few recent YA books that I can actually read and may have read when I was that age.
     
  20. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu New Member

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    I did not ask for evidence, I said your idea was invalid without it, and you have still not provided a shred concrete evidence that girls inherently read more.

    Online articles? Are you telling me I should believe you on the strength of claimed online articles? I would not believe an online article on an issue of gender relations [or any other issue of simaller import (say politics)]

    I would require the original study to tell if this was relevant or not, However I'm inclined to say that standardized tests in reading in school have little to do with pleasure reading habits.

    Firstly without numbers and a source this is useless, as it cannot be verified, or it's accuracy checked.

    All your arguments fit with the logical patter a sexist would use to arrive at your conclusion, starting with the assumptions that girls are better than boys [and there for more intelligent] and intelligent people read more, we see
    ~Girls are more intelligent
    ~Intelgent people read more
    ~Thair for girls read more

    Your reference to supposed graduation statistics [Note; they are 'supposed' because they have not been shown, or checked only claimed] seems to me to only make sense as untapped to establish the first premise [girls are more intelligent] as true

    I have, and I still do not accept your opinion as valid.

    And I'm saying it doesn't. The burden of proof is still on you to prove your point, not on me to disprove it.

    While I'm glad you concede that YA is overly 'feminist', I note that you have Boys and Girls as being equally turned off by the genre being suffused by books intended for girls, that makes no sense. [I'm aware that not every girl likes the same things in a book, I'm also aware of how small a number have taste in books identical to a boy]

    I actually think I read that one in middle school.

    BTY I've seen this series on shelves, it really stands out espeataly the hardbacks.

    I feel compled to point out that Bright sahdow did not intend to offend anyone, as he himself has said.

    By which you mean it's by and large quite vapid, right? [That is what I think of it, and I know girls that think that as well]
    @Elunoia~I think you may be reacting to the same thing that makes me dislike those stories [I would definitely have characterized them that way] But feel compelled to disagree that that makes those books less for girls, I do understand you distaste at being associated with them though.

    That is true. To an extent, there are some movies and books that appeal to each gender about equally. The smart alicks among you are thinking 'Right, everyone can agree they suck' but I don't mean those. There are a very few stories that seem to appeal to people regardless of gender, but not [in my experience] for teenagers [I think it probable has something to do with them being teenagers] Teenagers will usually classify a story as for boys or girls and rarely read outside of their gender category [Note; I'm well aware that that isn't true for all teens, but it is true for many, boys and girls alike]

    Here's an interesting thought, looking at the responses from people who were once teenage girls I wonder if the books the everyone has been thinking of as 'aimed at teenage girls' are actually aimed at teen girls Who don't often read.
    I'd still contend that boys have it much worse because there is little aimed at them. Period.
     
  21. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    A possibly horribly sexist theory: One could declare the probably stereotyped assumption that girls are more interested in books about relationships and emotional issues, and boys are more interested in action and adventure and horror.

    When girls and boys hit their teens, they're almost, but not quite, adults; they still have a few areas that they're not fully mature in. Those areas might include relationships and emotional issues - that's an area where teenagers are generally still in a lot of confusion and turmoil.

    So it may be that teenagers are not ready for adult-level books about relationships and emotional issues, but they have no problem with adult-level books with action and adventure and horror. So the YA niche doesn't _need_ action/adventure/horror books - that need is already filled with adult books. But it does need the relationship/emotional books, because the adult books of that type don't fill that need for teenagers.

    And if the main market for the relationship/emotional books is girls, then that's who those books will be written for. So the YA market is essentially _defined_ as relationship/emotional books for girls; that's the only area where books specifically for this age are needed. (Remember, this is a theory. Is this true? Not a clue.)

    So if we stop there, girls get most of what they want - they can read YA books for the emotional/relationship stuff, and adult books when they do want action/adventure. Boys only get part of what they want - they get adult books when they want action/adventure, and if they want emotional/relationship books, they're shortchanged.

    And the fact that boys are shortchanged in that area may mean that boys read less. And if they read less, books in that area suitable for boys are less likely to be published. So they read less. And so on.

    It's a theory.

    ChickenFreak
     
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  22. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu New Member

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    That's a very interesting idea, I might point out that in this model you've proposed teen boys would have to seek out books they'd like [because teens are rarely given or pushed towards adult books (quite the opposite in my experience)]
    Which is why I must disagree with this statement, most teens are only exposed to YA [and I've seen parents fight to keep it that way] and so we should include books that boys will like [even if all we are doing is relabeling them], and some books should be created for those boys who aren't ready for adult action Ect. [The same way there are books for girls not ready for adult romance books]
     
  23. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I see your point, and that could certainly be a further reason why teen boys don't read as much as teen girls, if that's an accurate statistic. I could imagine that as our society gets more and more protective of children, it might get harder and harder for teens to get their hands on adult books. When I was a kid, about thirty years ago now, the "children's room" at the library was mostly for children, and when I hit my teens I got my books from the main stacks. These days, I see that my local library has a "teen zone", and while I don't know if teenagers are discouraged from browsing the adult stacks, I could imagine that they might be.

    And, yes, if it's true that teens are discouraged from browsing the adult stacks, they certainly need YA books in all areas and for both sexes. I think that discouraging them is a very large mistake, but if it's the standard practice, then it needs to be dealt with.

    ChickenFreak

    Edited to add: However, I see a conflict here. Relabeling adult books as "YA" so that teen boys' parents will allow them to read those books, is catering to the idea that teens should be penned in and only allowed to read YA books. And that's an idea that I'm emphatically opposed to. So it's a thicket.
     
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  24. marina

    marina Contributor Contributor

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    Hopefully this will end your denial of what many people already know. Every one of these studies shows that women read more than men.

    2008 NEA study:
    nytimes.com/2009/01/12/books/12reading.html?_r=1
    nea.gov/research/toread.pdf

    2007 AP/Ipsos poll:
    ipsos-na.com/news-polls/pressrelease.aspx?id=3613

    2005 Gallup poll:
    gallup.com/poll/16582/about-half-americans-reading-book.aspx
     
  25. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    I don't think i was ever discouraged - used to wander into the adult section of the library or bookshop from a very early age - or raid my parents bookshelves. I guess the difference might be if you don't have lots of books about at home.
     

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