Why "said" should remain dead.

Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by Pixiebells, Aug 15, 2015.

  1. Chinspinner

    Chinspinner Contributor Contributor

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    haha.
     
  2. Aaron DC

    Aaron DC Contributor Contributor

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    Hows about them beats eh?
     
  3. Chinspinner

    Chinspinner Contributor Contributor

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    By the way that was a very kind and soft rebuttal. I would have been far less relaxed about it.
     
  4. Masterspeler

    Masterspeler Active Member

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    I think we're reaching a point were there's a split in lit. "Said" or not. I have read things with "he informed" (unless he's some informant or whatever) "she pontificated" and other words like that. I think the mistake comes with overuse of any tag. You should be able to (points thumbs at myself too) have dialogue with minimal tags.

    The agent and the new kid assigned to them were pinned down under heavy gun fire.

    "Grab the gun!" the agent said.
    "I can't, sir"
    "Just reach out, and grab it!"
    "I...I'm scared, ok? I can't move!"
    "God damnit. You reach out and grab that gun, or we all die!"

    Closing his eyes the new agent leaned out grabbing the gun and sliding it to his boss

    So there, one said, the rest of the dialogue not using a single tag. (Please, dont take as me being hoity toity (technical term) I'm using these types of discussions as teachable moments to brush up my own writing)

    AB
     
  5. xanadu

    xanadu Contributor Contributor

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    It's fine to leave tags out (without beats) as long as it's either perfectly clear who's speaking or it doesn't matter who's speaking. But leaving out tags just to avoid them can be confusing to the reader if done improperly.

    Likewise, beats have their place, but you also risk turning your prose into a list of stage directions. Using beats to avoid tags is clumsy and leads to very boring action micromanagement. Honestly, I don't care if a character blinks or frowns or shrugs or nods or...

    Moderation. Use beats. Use tags. Use unattributed dialog. I don't see why there's any kind of push to eliminate tags...in fact, I worry that advice to do so is harmful, much in the same way as "don't use adverbs" and "never use passive voice" and other simplified and incorrect soundbites.

    I'd suggest going for clarity above all else (unless ambiguity is the desired result...proceed with caution). But use what makes the most sense in the given situation.
     
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  6. Chinspinner

    Chinspinner Contributor Contributor

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    By the way, Aaron DC just stole my pencil. I do not want to be the twat in the room, but I would like my pencil back.
     
  7. Chinspinner

    Chinspinner Contributor Contributor

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    Who do I need to speak to about this? Who can get my pencil back?
     
  8. Chinspinner

    Chinspinner Contributor Contributor

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    Oh ok, so the pencil is on its way? I can't wait too long because I need it. Don't let hime tell you, What did he say? He said what? Just give me my fucking pencil.
     
  9. Entiter

    Entiter New Member

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    In my personal opinion, trying to come up with other dialogue tags all the time looks quite pretentious. If they're just saying something, "said" usually works best. However, if they're saying something in a specific way, go ahead and use that instead! Examples of that would include whisper, scream, sigh, gasp etc. But if you don't need to show how it's said, don't try to use too many other words. You just look like you're showing off your thesaurus. I think the main problem when the word "said" looks overused is that the author is using too many dialogue tags. No matter which word you use, it will look weird if you're throwing in dialogue tags after practically every line. Occasionally using some other words is fine (like your example where Will clarified his opinions about religion - if you only used "said" in that context, he might come off as some random creepy dude on the train who wants to share his thoughts with strangers, whereas "clarified" makes it obvious that he has been discussing the matter, feels misunderstood, and wants to make his view clear) but, as I read in some article online on the matter, dialogue tags are usually just brief little helpers which nobody pays much attention to, so by using as many fancy words as you possibly can, you're drawing attention to the tags and thus distracting from the actual dialogue.
     
  10. DeathandGrim

    DeathandGrim Senior Member

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    I'm not sure if the thread's on topic anymore but I'm gonna post about my experience with "said" and other words. I had actually thought along the same lines as the OP at first. And I tried to eliminate said for "variety" in one of my tales I posted here for critique. (Not plugging; just an example)

    It was a mess.

    Every sentence had a different word describing their speaking and it's like you're jerking the reader's mind left right up down here and there and there and here some more. It was distracting from the actual story because the reader has to pause to decipher how the dialog was spoken to get the effect. And it ended up hampering the story as a result.

    I learned that from experience that using "said" doesn't mean you lack creativity or you're an amateur. "Said" isn't the most important word in the dialog. It's up to the reader to decide in their mind how they heard the dialog. All you need to do is make sure the dialog is coherent. The reader will take it as they see fit and if you've given enough context it'll most likely be interpreted the way you saw fit as well.

    It's okay to guide them every now and then and in fact that makes using a different word for "said" far more effective. Otherwise... just use "said" you have far more important things to deal with in the story.
     
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  11. Masterspeler

    Masterspeler Active Member

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    @xanadu what is a beat? I know what tags are but beats? Sits down to learn
     
  12. xanadu

    xanadu Contributor Contributor

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    A beat is narrative or action with dialog, but isn't a tag. Like so:

    Dave sat down. "What's a beat?" <--beat (Dave sat down)
    "Action with dialog," Joe replied. <--tag (Joe replied)
    "Okay, I see now." <--unattributed
    Joe nodded. "It's easy once someone explains it." He took a seat next to Dave. "And beats don't always have to be at the start, either. They can be between to sections of dialog, or even at the end." He stood up again.
    "Like that?"
    "Yes," said Joe. "Like that."

    Cheesy, yes. Bad writing, yes. But using all three of the strategies intermixed.
     
  13. DeathandGrim

    DeathandGrim Senior Member

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    Using Beats is considered bad writing?
     
  14. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    No. Beats are often desirable in place of tags. I think @xanadu was referring to the specific spur of the moment examples provided.
     
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  15. Masterspeler

    Masterspeler Active Member

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    @xanadu I think I get it. So it's replacing the beat, having it implied by whoever does the action? I tend to use them a lot though, but I heard that editors hate that.
     
  16. DeathandGrim

    DeathandGrim Senior Member

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    Oh okay, thanks for clearing that up.
     
  17. xanadu

    xanadu Contributor Contributor

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    Yep, sorry for the confusion! I've never been good at coming up with examples on the spot :)
     
  18. DancingCorpse

    DancingCorpse Member

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    I have to agree I'm in the 'keep said' camp... I honestly don't notice/care 90% of the time as long as there is appropriate variation every so often or if the context calls for it delivering a more emphatic conveyance of the dialogue, and if they mix in explaining HOW somebody said something or insert an appropriate action. I don't mind a story being 75% merely ''said'' so long as they effectively do these things but that's just me, when I was younger I used to literally use ''said'' about 20% of the time and realized it was futile to avoid the big S deliberately and go out of my way to have somebody doing something else other than merely and approriately saying something with decent back up when the occasional called for it.
     
  19. Morgan Stelbas

    Morgan Stelbas Active Member

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    I have to say that after spending a couple hours reading through 9 pages (holy cow!) of posts, I have learned a lot! I came to this post to learn, so I have no further input. Everything has been said, or so, that's how I feel.

    I would like to thank all the more experienced writers, and experienced forum members out there for teaching me the following:

    1) The term "tag". Some may pity my lack of education, lol!

    2) The term "beat". I finally know what to call those sentences! Sweet!

    3) That balance and moderation is everything. I'm so relieved! I looked up this forum worried that I was using the word "said" too much and thought I should be using other terms. But, I've learned that, in fact my "beat" (pauses to see if anyone noticed that she used the new word learned in a sentence) explained the dialogue enough at times, and no tag was needed.

    4) That there are some grammar rules I forgot about such as the proper use of full stops versus commas in a dialogue. Thanks to @Mckk

    5) That I am extremely annoyed when people still want to offer an opinion on a thread without bothering to see if their opinion has already been expressed and beaten to death by others. Especially if they come in several pages into a thread. I guess I need more patience.

    Anyway, thank you for starting this thread! I've learned a great deal to improve my writing!
     
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  20. DefinitelyMaybe

    DefinitelyMaybe Contributor Contributor

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    There is certainly a lot of controversy. Some people say that said should never be used, some say it should be used near exclusively.
     
  21. DefinitelyMaybe

    DefinitelyMaybe Contributor Contributor

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    My long term aim is to write in 23/16.
     
  22. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Well, that more or less says it all, in my opinion.

    "Said," is useful, but ONLY to let the reader know who is speaking. It adds nothing else. You could create exactly the same effect by colour-coding your speakers. "Said" is a very useful word in the right place, though.

    If there is no danger of confusion as to who is speaking, you can use unattributed dialogue. That kind of dialogue moves quickly and creates impact. If that's the effect you want, by all means use that trick.

    If you want more visuals in any given stretch of dialogue—or want to keep it from galloping along too quickly—you need to enrich your dialogue attribution. That's where story beats come into their own, or using a more colourful, specific word to substitute for 'said.'

    Reading is not like watching a film. Actors in a film use facial expressions, body language and tone of voice to convey the meaning of what they are saying—which may NOT be inherent in the words themselves. They use pauses between sentences to convey meaning as well. The stretch of time it takes for another speaker to respond can also add to the intention of a scene. All these visuals help convey meaning, but they won't automatically occur in a written story unless you put them there.

    The one thing readers won't consciously notice is variety. So it's probably best to use all the tools you have to tell your story, rather than sticking to only one, or refusing to use another. I'd say use them all, as needed, to create a rich experience for your reader ...and have fun.
     
  23. KhalieLa

    KhalieLa It's not a lie, it's fiction. Contributor

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    I had always hoped to be able to write 8/5, but my life tends to run 24/7.
     
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  24. Masterspeler

    Masterspeler Active Member

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    I really want to write in syncope! Although there's such a thing in poetry. (I couldnt help it!)
     
  25. R.P. Kraul

    R.P. Kraul Member

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    Interesting thread.

    Said isn't just an identifier, though. It can be used for emphasis by adding a subtle pause between lines. Timing is often a vital part of dialogue. Notice how these examples are slightly different--

    "The whole world's rotten. And so is that woman."
    "The whole world's rotten," Mason said. "And so is that woman."
    Mason said, "The whole world's rotten. And so is that woman."

    You could use beats instead of dialogue tags, but tags are transparent, and beats are easy to overuse--sometimes to the extent that the characters seem to have maddening nervous habits. And that kind of thing can distract a reader from the dialogue.
     
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