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  1. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    Why the hypocrisy from the left?

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Steerpike, Jan 29, 2016.

    Is it just my perception, or has the Clinton campaign revealed a gross hypocrisy on the left that we generally consider more likely to come from the right? Maybe it has always been there, and it has taken a campaign by such a bad person to receive a lot of support to shine a light on it.

    If you're a left-wing/progressive person, you're generally in favor of economic equality/justice, transparency and honesty in government, support for women and minorities etc.

    With Clinton, you have someone who is part of the economic elite and tied to big money donors and special interests. Hypocritical elements on the left don't seem to care.

    More email information comes out, and it is clear she has been untruthful from the start. Even among her supporters her marks for perceived truthfulness aren't good. She keeps reporters away from speeches to big money. She's corrupt and opaque instead of honest and transparent. Hypocritical elements on the left don't seem to care.

    I'm biased on the women's issue, I suppose. I worked at a domestic violence shelter. I subscribe to the general progressive view that victims of assault, harassment, abuse, and the like deserve support and deserve to be believed. With respect to Clinton, as was recently reported in the NY Times and elsewhere you have people going back to the 1970s - quite a few of them - talking not only about Bill's actions (which I don't find particularly relevant to Hillary's campaign), but also about Hillary's horrible treatment in response by way of trying to discredit them, destroy them, and whatever else she said she was going to do (which I do find quite relevant). In this sense, Hillary supporters are kind of like people who still stand by Bill Cosby.

    As to my question of why hypocrisy...I suppose one might argue that the human brain is so good at rationalizing that people have built up a barrier to protect against cognitive dissonance of sorts. This allows them not to perceive their views and actions for what they are. I don't believe that, by and large. I think most Clinton supporters know exactly what she is and don't care. That subset of people are bad people in the same way that many Trump supporters are bad people. Some of the rest just aren't bright enough to see what's right in front of them.

    Maybe it's our two-party system that encourages this, made worse by the internet and 24-hour news cycles. Everyone is fixated on "us" versus "them" that they no longer care what "us" is. After 9-11 people were talking about how important it was that the U.S. not become like its enemies in order to fight them. Clinton supporters have demonstrated that the Democrats have become a lot like the GOP in their battle for power, and Democratic voters are a lot more like Bush/Cheney voters than they're comfortable admitting.
     
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  2. GingerCoffee
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    You just can't let it go, can you? People who disagree with your POV about Clinton are not being hypocritical. They disagree with your POV.
     
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  3. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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  4. Lea`Brooks
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    I've been wondering the same thing. Since the discussion about Hillary's dishonesty started, I've seen more and more people (outside of this forum, so I'm not targeting anyone in particular) say that the right-wing is targeting Clinton, there's a conspiracy going on where they're trying to make her look bad and hurt her campaign.

    But isn't the Clinton campaign and the "liberal media" doing exactly the same thing to Sanders? But oh, no. Clinton supporters can't see that conspiracy -- those are just the theories of crazy left-wing liberals who can't accept that their losing.

    But isn't is quite obvious that the media and the DNC have a favorite? Isn't it pretty clear that they are making Clinton out to be America's Savior and trying to do the exact opposite for Sanders?

    Take the Iowa Town Hall on CNN the other night. First, the moderator was constantly asking more questions, essentially attacking Sanders and making him defend himself. Then, when Sanders tried to walk around the stage and actually engage the people he was talking to, the moderator tried to make him sit down.

    But when O'Malley or Clinton were on stage? They were allowed to stand and walk around. The moderator didn't try to stop them. And I didn't see him (though I must admit, I wasn't following 100% once Sanders left the stage) peppering them with questions, forcing them to defend themselves like he did Sanders. Also, when Clinton came on stage, the moderator couldn't talk enough about her "huge endorsements." How she's winning big parties and it's a huge success and blah blah. Why didn't he mention Sanders' endorsements? He has won some big organizations as well. On top of that, one of the first things the moderator asked Clinton was how a "self-proclaimed socialist" is riding her tail.... even though Sanders had just defined what he thinks Democratic Socialism is not an hour before.

    Just saw this video too:


    ...where he talks about how the "liberal media" (and he even says Clinton News Network, which made me giggle) is taking Clinton's side but not Sanders. He says they are scared of Sanders, because the media is owned by large corporations, and Sanders plans to take control away from them. He focuses mostly on the Washington Post's recent op-ed piece about Sanders' "fiction-filled campaign."

    It's a big cluster, man. I can't wait for him to win Iowa and watch his campaign and supporters grow even more.
     
  5. MichaelP
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    MichaelP Active Member

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    Hillary Klingon for Prison 2016!
     
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  6. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    After talking to quite a few people about Hillary VS Sanders, I can't help but feel that the Hillary supporters are either too much invested in the pursuit of a woman president, in preventing the republicans from winning, or both, to even consider another candidate. Not one democrat I've met has said what Sanders stands for is bad- instead, they come up with a handful of excuses of why we can't take him seriously, and I can't help but feel these reasons are invented to protect candidate número uno, the one who is a woman and endorsed by the Democratic Party.

    Someone on this forum made an insightful (if sad) comment regarding Sander's support group, that the movement appears much bigger on the inside than on the outside.

    I think that this statement pertains to other things as well. Things like gun control, abortion, and healthcare, while important, have taken a disproportionate amount of focus , when compared to two issues that seem a lot smaller from the inside (any one individual's perspective) than the outside(the actual numbers).

    In the past decades wealth inequality and global warming have gotten alarmingly worse, even with a democrat in office the last eight years. Something is very, very wrong, and it needs to be addressed. Along comes a candidate who strongly stands for these things- he does not just play lip service like some other candidates- he strongly champions these two issues. It's a godsend to people like myself, who would never otherwise be interested in politics, and yet, unbelievably , it seems like people actually want to turn a blind eye. Maybe Sanders won't be able to achieve much, but electing him changes the "national dialogue" and shifts our focus to what matters. We can argue day and night about the best system of healthcare , but surely most of us would agree that the majority of the nations wealth should not belong to a very small minority , and the preservation of our planet is of utmost importance . In other elections, it's fine to play politics, try to get the first whatever president in office, but when a person comes along and says hey " I want to try to fix the two objectively largest issues of our time, " you grab onto that person and don't let go.
     
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  7. GingerCoffee
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    I find this self-serving anecdote to be weak.

    You ignore the fact Clinton is one of the most qualified candidates for President ever.

    Regardless if you agree with that fact, I'm pretty sure the bulk of Clinton supporters, myself included, are basing their decision on wanting the most competent person in the office.

    Ideologue vs competence - deal with it.
     
  8. Acanthophis
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    Qualifications and competence are both triumphed by one thing: judgement. Anyone who voted in favour of the Iraq War is basically unfit to be a politician [and by extension, a decent human being]. The entire world watched as that vote went through, and we were all shocked and confused that it did. I was like nine at the time, and I remember not understanding why Iraq was going to be invaded when the terrorists came from a completely different place. If we're going to talk about competence, Clinton lacks it for that vote alone. She can say she regrets it all she wants, but when you're partially responsible for the deaths of millions of people, it doesn't matter. This goes for anyone who was in favour of that devastation, not just her - however there is only one democratic candidate who did vote in favour, so there's that to think about.

    Oh, and if we're talking about competence, she's clearly not. She doesn't want to deal with the republicans when it comes to creating a better health care system [aka one every other first world country has]; that's not competence, that's incompetence to the highest degree. You're a politician for the love of god, act like one!
     
  9. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    So competent she doesn't know not to exchange emails about state affairs over an unsecured server?
     
  10. 123456789
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    I want to say more- I read an article today (anti Sanders) which basically compares the Sander's supporter's expectations to a movie, starting with him winning in Iowa, and ending to him accepting the democratic nomination, with Simon and Garfunkle in the background. The enemy of this movie of course is the establishment. It's funny, but I think the Hillary supporters also have a "movie." Their movie starts with Hillary winning full support of all liberals and democrats, and going on to defeat the evil republicans(the enemy of this film). Of course the story ends with Hillary becoming the first woman president, making U.S history, just one more liberal achievement, after the first black president and legalization of gay marriage. Meanwhile, the issues that directly threaten all , or >99% of our lives, that we never seem to think about, that being income inequality and global warming, continue to worsen, just like they have for decades. If they worsened over the Obama years, there's no reason to think they'll get any better with another democrat, known for switching stances and for being allies with Wall Street (her own son in law is owner of a hedge fund), and whose own husband made decisions as president that helped the Banks get bigger. ***Note, I don't think Hillary is any worse than other politicians, I just think she's another politician.***
     
  11. GingerCoffee
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    Like I said, you might not agree, but that still remains the reason many Clinton supporters are voting for her. The nonsense we're just blindly voting for a woman or whatever your other trivialization of other peoples' decision making @123456789 is just that, nonsense.

    I don't agree with the trumped up charges about her competence over the emails but there's no sense debating that here. I see it as mostly right wing witch hunting and just as I noted in the OP, Clinton's negative image doesn't match the actual facts.
     
  12. 123456789
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    Go ahead and argue against all 40 reasons, all of them supported
     
  13. GingerCoffee
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    Since you started with nothing but a BS email lie that made the rounds, I don't think I'm going to bother with the other 39. You obviously just copied some BS list without checking anything yourself. Hint, your links are to nothing but internet bullshit.

    Snopes
    By the way, you've just demonstrated what my OP said, most of the negative Clinton claims are bogus.
     
  14. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    Her son in law is a hedgefund owner. She used to accept very expensive speaking fees, including speaking on the behalf of banks. I've checked these accusations. They're facts. How is the email accusation a lie? So she didn't have sensitive emails on an unsecured server?
     
  15. dreamersky1212
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    Do you believe she wants to change the income inequality and take on Wall Street, or don't you?

    I don't. You can show me how she has been railroaded by the press, and you may even be right. But in the end I think she will do what every democratic president has done for the last 30 years, and that is maintaining a broken system. Bernie is right. If you can't see that, then okay, but to me it is stupid to work that hard to save a corrupt system. Honestly, tell me honestly, do you believe there isn't political corruption on both sides of the aisle? Do you really believe she wants to fix it? Really?
     
  16. GingerCoffee
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    Barney Frank seems to think Clinton will work toward changing income inequality and addressing Wall St issues despite the fact Chelsea and her husband would pay more taxes if passed.

    Barney Frank advising Clinton on Wall Street plan
    I've always liked Barney Frank and heard him on one of the news shows tonight. He made a good case for Clinton being ready to make some inroads in the problems.

    Think about it, you're a liberal and have been an activist for liberal causes all your life. You already have millions as does your daughter and grandkids. What would you want your legacy to be as the first female President? To join dinner parties and rub shoulders with the rich, or to make a meaningful mark on society?

    I have seen enough of the Clintons to believe the latter.
     
  17. Ben414
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    For the record, I will be voting for Bernie. However, I think there are legitimate reasons to vote for Hilary.

    I am curious as to how Bernie Sanders will be able to make any radical economic changes with a Republican Congress and probably without the support of moderate Democrats. It seems to me that is the exact type of changes that a president will find extremely difficult to be the sole driver behind, and it's the foreign policy/immigration/criminal justice/race and gender relations/etc. issues that represent the ones where they can exert a stronger influence. For example, Obama's DACA and recent changes to juvenile justice.

    I understand there are a lot of counter arguments and counter arguments to those counter arguments--I'm not trying to get roped into this debate--but is there a convincing argument as to how he will be able to achieve any drastic economic changes?
     
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  18. GingerCoffee
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    In short, according to Sanders, he can only be successful if there is a major popular revolution accompanying his election. I agree.

    I don't see signs of said revolution yet. And given the Trump phenomena is bigger than the Sanders phenomena it doesn't look promising at this point in time.

    Time will tell.
     
  19. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    This isn't about Sanders. It's about you and me and everyone else in the U.S (or ~99%) admitting that there is a serious problem that deserves immediate attention and rectification. How that happens, either through major political reform, which involves demonstrations and participation in all things voting by everyone, or through a formation of some new, grand Union, or something else, I assume would be the next step.
     
  20. 123456789
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    Obviously you know Sanders has been going on against Wall Street for a very long time. Is this true for Hillary? Because I've read articles that say she has spoken in defense of the banks in the past. To me that would explain why she is getting support from Wall Street.

    Also, why is she getting support from Wall Street if she plans to work against them?
     
  21. 123456789
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    It's the same phenomenon. Unfortunately, the dissatisfaction that the majority currently feel with our government has been divided in half and pitted against one another. I can't help but feel that the two party system is an absolutely brilliant mechanism of preventing the population from focusing on the issues that matter most.
     
  22. GingerCoffee
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    I want a competent President first. Like it or not, we need a competent President now more than ever. These are dangerous times and I'm concerned about the growing fascism in this country as evidenced by the Trump phenomena and the TEA Party movement and the unrest in the Middle East.

    Sanders is a one trick pony, growing inequality trumps all (no pun intended). Whatever you think will happen if Sanders is elected won't.

    Sorry, my link to, 'the revolution will not be televised' got screwed up by the forum software.
     
  23. Acanthophis
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    A liberal and an activist all her life? Considering she was raised on conservative values and was a damn republican for a decent amount of time - hardly. Sure she left the Republican Party because she started identifying as an anti-war liberal, so I guess that's good.

    Oh wait, she voted for the war in Iraq...

    Edit: Let's not call her a liberal, because she really isn't. The narrative for the political spectrum has been destroyed in America. Hillary Clinton is a conservative; take her to any other developed nation and she wouldn't last a day running as a liberal. In America, the Democratic Party is conservative, and the Republican Party is neo-fascist/borderline Third Reich. That's the truth. What she wants to do with health care would instantly lose her an election in most other democratic countries.

    There's also a false narrative that republican = conservative and democrat = liberal; and it needs to die or people don't really see any change.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2016
  24. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    @123456789 when you're dealing with Clinton supporters you have to realize you're already dealing with people who have abandoned principle and rationalized away a lot of bad behavior in the name of blind partisan loyalty. Or else they've put as much thought into this as the flock of any televangelist has toward their own idol (party faithful are a lot like religious fundamentalists).

    I'm glad to see Bernie doing as well as he is. It's mostly older voters, I find, who are basically party cheerleaders with no set of core beliefs, just a mindless loyalty to whoever their betters, and the vested interests, deem the right candidate. I think it's the same on the right - again, Clinton supporters are basically the Bush/Cheney crowd of the left. One good thing you can see from this election is that if trends continue among younger voters, it won't be too long before the unprincipled (or uninformed, or both) voters that have a hold of the Democratic party establishment lose their grip.

    That will give progressives a place to go, because the Democrats aren't always a great fit currently. No one who is progressive can be supporting Clinton right now if they have any integrity. In a few more cycles, that might not be the case of the Democratic establishment candidate.
     
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  25. 123456789
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    Guys, the point of that list is to take a look at some of the more serious accusations. Did she vote for Iraq? Is she involved with Wall Street ? Has she often changed stances? How do you explain the ridiculous speaking fees? Hillary has been digging hard and yet this kind of dirt does not exist for Sanders. Do you really think it's because the republicans have it in for Hillary that much more? Time warner which owns CNN is a huge donor for Hillary. Maybe I should hand wave all her "accomplishments" as establishment propoganda.
     
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