1. Ryan Elder
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    Ryan Elder Contributing Member

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    Would criminals behave this way realistically for my story?

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by Ryan Elder, May 28, 2016.

    I was told by some readers that I have a plot hole in my story, in the sense that the criminal characters behave implausibly.

    I was wondering why they do though, or I do not understand the plot hole, people have told me.

    Basically the gang has recruited a new member, but they want to make him a full trusted member, cause the man has connections that the gang could use. He's a cop. A crooked cop, but a cop no less, so it's risky recruiting a cop, but advantageous cause he has connections in his job.

    So the gang wants to give the new recruit a 'blood in', that is is that they want him to spill the blood of another person as a test to get in. It's a realistic technique that gangs use. However, since the new member is a cop, and could be undercover even, to aim to want to get evidence on the gang and bust them, the gang has to take precautions.

    The gang does a fake blood in on him instead. They get one of their own members to pose as a potential victim, and the cop has to perform the blood in, with an unloaded prop gun, not knowing that it's staged, to see if he can do it.

    It's kind of like how in some books and movies, a gang will give someone an empty gun, to see if he will shoot someone to see if he is not an undercover cop, but they do not want to give an undercover cop a loaded gun, even with one bullet in it.

    But in this case, they figure they will use one of their own members. The reason is, is because if the cop pulls the trigger, and no bullet is fired, if it's a real victim the gang will still have to kill the person to keep them quiet. If the person is, killed and then a body later found, the undercover cop could be a witness to that killing.

    So by having a fake blood in, with one of their own members, and just pretending to get rid of the hostage, after the blood in is completed, the new recruit will be fooled into thinking he passed a real blood in test, but the gang does not have to worry about killing a real person, and being caught for it later, if the cop is an undercover.

    But I was told by readers that it does not make sense for a gang to use a fake hostage, and that the gang would use a real one, and frame the new recruit for murder if necessary. Do you think that's true though? I mean the cop knows who one of the gang members is personally, and if that cop would turn him in for murder of the victim, that would suck for him. Where as if no murder is committed, the cop does not have anything to turn him in for, should he choose not to do the blood in.

    But I was told it does not make sense, and gangs commit real murders and do not realistically bother with fake staged ones. What do you think?
     
  2. ddavidv
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    ddavidv Contributing Member

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    Is it possible? Yes.
    Is it probable? I don't think so.
    Most gangs are pretty cutthroat. In fact many will have new recruits kill a person completely at random. Using a fake victim would also cause the reader to take the gang less seriously.
     
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  3. Ryan Elder
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    Ryan Elder Contributing Member

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    Okay thanks. But killing a real person can be more risky, since it means the risk of being caught for murder. So wouldn't a fake murder be better cause it's less risky? That's what other people told me as well, that the gang is not plausible because of this. But I feel if a character is going to take a bigger risk than what is necessary to accomplish the goal, then I feel I need a good reason for it.

    Is cutthroat alone, a smart enough reason, to take a bigger risk than what is necessary?
     
  4. Tesoro
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    Tesoro Contributing Member Contributor

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    As I see it, it's unrealistic because they know he's a cop and that's where the risk lies, right in front of them. Do they have to be aware he's a cop? Because that is, at least in my view, why they wouldn't take the risk of using a random person, which would probably be the most realistic if you want them to come across as seriously bad people. Plus, why would he join if they're aware he's a cop? And why wouldn't he be aware of that, if he's a good cop? It's a catch-22 all over the place.
     
  5. Sack-a-Doo!
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    Sack-a-Doo! Contributing Member Contributor

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    The best way to answer any behaviour question is to ask yourself: what would I do?

    If you're being honest with yourself and do some real soul-searching, you'll always find better answers than if you simply label someone a criminal/cop/what-have-you and then try to figure it out based on TV shows you've watched.

    Criminals don't think of themselves as criminals (although cops likely think of themselves as cops, but that's another story). They look at the world around them and, just like the rest of us, try to work out how they can get what they want in life. The answers they come up with are based on their circumstances, just like everyone else.

    IDK, maybe it's harder to work these things out in today's world where we do face-to-face so seldom compared to years gone by.
     
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  6. Ryan Elder
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    Ryan Elder Contributing Member

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    He is not undercover at all. He happens to know one of the gang members. But he is a crooked cop, not an undercover. The gang wants to recruit him because they think that having a cop on their team is a good idea. He has police resources and he could serve as a mole.

    And yes they are aware he's cop, which is why they want him for a mole. This is why they do not take the risk of using a random person. Because let's say they recruit a crooked cop into the gang and want him to to a test to prove himself. That crooked cop could be an undercover cop, and they wouldn't know. Even if he is not actually undercover, as he is not, they still cannot know that positively. Or even if he is not undercover and they ask him to join the gang, he could go to his superiors and say that a gang has wanted to recruit him and now they want him to do a blood in. He could say this, with the interest of busting the gang, with his superiors help.

    Even though he is a crooked cop, it is still a possibly that he is not interested in joining the gang, and he could possible still want to make a bust to look good, crooked or not. It is still a possibility, so the gang wants to take the precaution of not using a random target, and using a target they know will be on their side, and create deniability if a bust should occur.

    He's not really undercover, but he could be and they never know. Or he could just be a crooked cop, who still wants to make a bust and tell his superiors about him being recruited into a gang, and it's our chance to make a bust now. They want a mole, but they also want to take precautions in recruiting one, should something go down.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2016
  7. Gerald Bunch
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    Gerald Bunch Member

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    Every gang has their own set of rules and guidelines. I could not think of any "smart gangs" that would let a cop join, it just would not be too smart of a move. The cop is already in the biggest gang, so why take a chance that dangerous. There would be no need to be in two gangs, too dangerous. However, I know for a fact that there is a history with certain policeman that will work with gangs for financial gain. The Hells Angels would never associate with any type of cop, not would they entertain the option to let them join their club. There have been documented case with the Crips and Bloods working with the police, as well as letting them join their gang.
     
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  8. Ryan Elder
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    Ryan Elder Contributing Member

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    Okay thanks. However, the cop is not already part of another gang. He is crooked, but he is a lone crooked cop, and has no ties to anyone. So would they risk recruiting him then for a mole, if he has no ties to any other gangs?
     
  9. Gerald Bunch
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    Gerald Bunch Member

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    Crooked or not, they are still a sort or gang, club, etc. I have many family members that are DEA , as well as policeman in San Francisco. My point is, they are a "gang" in their own way. They are the true blue, a gang of mostly good people, but it only takes a few to ruin it for the rest. Trust me when I tell you, there will never be a "one lone" cop. It will start at the top, then work it's way down to find new ways to make good cops bad, by the temptation of money. There is always the possibility for recruitment for those reasons.
    I ran strip clubs for seventeen years in different cities, mainly San Francisco, where I worked closely with, less than reputable people, such as; Politicians, police, and judges. The ole mayor of San Francisco was at one time, Deja' vu's lawyer in the 80's. Deja vu was the company that a ran clubs for. One of the clubs I ran was frequented by, the Hells Angels. I got to know many of then in the Bay Area.
    I have a cousin that works for the DEA, and I worked as a CI on certain jobs for money. I got to know the underbelly of San Francisco very well.
    I am currently working on two books. The first will be called; "Beyond The Pole" and the other will be, "Rat". I did a seventeen year journal of my time running strip clubs, with a five year journal at the DEA as my time doing jobs with them, that became very dangerous. Sorry for the long reply, but I have a passion for talking about the criminal world. I have personally never been to jail, but because of my background in the strip club industry, plus with the DEA, I have a lot of experience in the field.
     
  10. Ryan Elder
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    Ryan Elder Contributing Member

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    Okay thanks a lot for your input. Well let's say my gang wanted to recruit a cop to be a mole. What if this cop decided to tell his superiors that a gang approached him for recruitment and that this is their chance to bust them?

    The superiors could turn it into a sting operation and be ready to catch the gang in the act of the blood in, should one happen. They could still monitor the situation. The gang knows this, so wouldn't the gang want to use a fake blood in target because of this? Say the blood in will be a secret sting operation from the cop's end of things.

    What if they go to give the cop the blood in test, but other cops who are monitoring the situation, sworm in arrest them and save the blood in target from being harmed. They will want the blood in target to testify, to help bust the gang. But if the blood in target, is secretly one of the gang's own members, then the target will lie and make up a story to help get the gang off the charges, and without a victim of the potential crime, they do not have much of a crime to go on, since they do not have a victim.

    This is the point of using a fake victim. If they use a real person and have a real dead body, then they are caught in the act of murder. Recruiting a cop into a gang with a blood in, is a risky move, cause the cop could bring police friends along for a sting. But if the gang does not actually murder anybody, then they will be caught for murder and it's less risky, then killing and being caught for it. If the cops want the blood in target to identify her attacker or assailant, she would say that it's not him, and that her attacker was someone else. The cops wouldn't have near as much evidence on them in comparison to a real dead body, or a real victim that survived the attack, that is willing to ID them.

    Does that make sense?
     
  11. Gerald Bunch
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    Gerald Bunch Member

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    I understand where you are going with it, but unfortunately, they never use fake people, nor do they do fake busts. It must be the real deal, that's why they use CI's. Usually, the police will contact the DEA for help on a case where they have to go undercover. The police are not trained to go undercover, the way DEA or ATF are. So, the police will hand the job off, because if they do decide to move forward and fail, they will be in a lot of trouble, not to mention, possibly getting the CI killed.
    As far as the "blood in" and "blood out" code, every gang does have their set of rules. Say the Crips or Bloods, thy are all about the blood in, blood out code, but if you move from the street gangs to motorcycle clubs, the guys that are in the motorcycle gangs are able to have a life after the gang, but it depends on the reasons. When you move up from the motorcycle to the mafia, they have a total different code on the blood in/out. For instance, if you want out of the Yakuza, you must give then reasons, but then, if they approve you to move on, there must be a finger cut off a show of good faith to move on. After that, you may not ever contact anyone from the gang again.
    There are so many different rules, so that's why you must specify the gang, club, mafia, etc. I think that it all matters, so I hope that this helps a little.
     
  12. Ryan Elder
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    Ryan Elder Contributing Member

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    Okay thanks. What if there are no CI's though, what then?

    Also, you say you understand why I am going with it. So it makes sense then, even though no gang does it?

    I was told by others that the gang uses real blood in murder for new members, cause if the blood in commits a real murder, then they have insurance on them.

    However, I do not understand how this concept would work in the gang's favor legally. So let's say they get the new recruit to kill someone. The gang would have to make sure their is enough evidence to tie the murder to that person, such as planting the new recruits blood, spit, hair, or other forms of DNA on the body. Finger prints cannot hurt either. Then what would they do bury the body, and tell the new member if he turns on them, that the body will be found?

    Let's say they do it this way. If the new member turns on them in the future, would the gang tell the police that the traitor murdered someone before, and they know where the body is buried? If the gang tells the police this, then they have just confessed to being part of a past murder, and that will be added to their charges. So how does that help in the gang's favor? How do they discredit the person turning them in, without confessing to a murder?

    Unless I got the concept of insurance wrong and it wouldn't happen like that? I just don't understand how the gang could have that insurance, to discredit someone, without incriminating themselves as accessories in the process. What do you think?
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
  13. Gerald Bunch
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    Gerald Bunch Member

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    The police always have to have a CI. They always have to have one on their side, to tell them the inner workings of the gang. They have to have full names of the people that they are trying to bust. Going in blind is not an option, so having a person that can tell them about the gang is paramount. Also, not all gangs need to have the new recruit kill somebody. Most are invited into the gang, because they have something to offer the leader, so the gang can keep generating money. If the guy runs guns, deals drugs, or if he wants to be hired for the wet work. However, if you have a kid that is under eighteen, with no experience doing anything, he will have to earn his stripes by doing things that the leader wants, such as killing a random rival gang member.
    This is why you must specify the gang, because certain rules will apply. If you have a cop that goes undercover, killing somebody is never an option, so they would just put an end to the operation.
    As far as planting evidence to frame somebody, a street gang would never do something that requires that type of thinking, but if you go to the motorcycle clubs to the mafia, they will have a guy that will do that for them. If a street gang kills somebody, it will be by, walking up on that person or a drive-bye, so there would not be much evidence. You would never have to kill a person to join the Hells Angels, they take you through a year or more process of getting patched in.
     
  14. KokoN
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    KokoN Active Member

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    To me it makes sense because they don't want to hand the guy a loaded gun, and a real victim wouldn't pretend to be shot if they weren't actually shot. So to me that makes sense. However, I'm no gang expert. Also though for a good story people are willing to suspend their disbelief so as long as it's written well, and explained well, then I don't think it would be a problem. Of course there are people who are sticklers for realism but you can't please everyone, so maybe they just aren't your target audience.
     
  15. Ryan Elder
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    Ryan Elder Contributing Member

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    That's true, the people who told me they did not by it were a couple of cops, when I asked them how plausible it was, so maybe cops are less likely to believe it?

    As long as it makes sense.

    As for the cops always using CI's, in my story, the police do not know who any of the gang members are. They know that there is a gang out there committing crimes, but they do not actually have any suspects yet. Of course the gang does not know for sure that the police do not know who any of them are. So when it comes to recruiting a cop to be a gang mole, they want to take precautions, just in case the cop would have told his superiors, that a gang was trying to recruit him.

    This cop is not actually undercover though. He is a crooked cop that does not tell his superiors, but the gang still wants to take precautions, just in case.

    When it comes to real blood in murders though, if a street gang would never plant evidence on a dead body, and they do not think like that, then what is the point of a blood in where there is a real dead body, if the shooter, cannot be tied to it for insurance?
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
  16. Gerald Bunch
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    Gerald Bunch Member

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    There is no real loyalty in street gangs, only the money that the gang members generate. If one of the "higher ups" in a gang notices some guy making a lot of money on the street, whether, dealer, car thief, burglar, etc., they will begin to watch the guy, get to know him and what he is about. If he is in their "hood", then they will test his will, maybe even try to extort money from him. If they feel that the guy can make the gang money, he will not have to kill anyone. He is a money maker, so as long as he makes money, he will be protected.
    As far as the police officer, if the gang is smart, then they would never allow the guy to join as a cop. He would have to go in as a regular guy from the street. However, if the guy grew up in the same area as the gang, he would have a shot in doing so.
     
  17. Gerald Bunch
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    Gerald Bunch Member

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    There is no book on realistic criminals, they and all different ways. If you can see a story in it, go for it. Anything is possible in the criminal world.
     
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  18. Ryan Elder
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    Ryan Elder Contributing Member

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    Okay thanks. What if my gang was the type not live in a particular hood or a particular part out town? Say one had an apartment in one area of town, and one owned a house in another? With the rise of the internet, they can be all around a large city for example, and would have their homes where they were able to get them. I mean they are not the type to say, you have to buy your home in this particular area of the city. They are not the type to care where each other lives, as long as they are mobile and can meet up when on call.
     
  19. Gerald Bunch
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    Gerald Bunch Member

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    As far as street gangs, they are all about territory. When you get to motorcycle gangs, they usually live within the city or even state that they claim. You can tell by their bottom rocker what city or state they claim.
     
  20. Ryan Elder
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    Ryan Elder Contributing Member

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    Okay thanks. Well someone told me that during blood ins, some gangs will video record the blood in, as insurance. That is, they will record the new recruit killing someone in case the new recruit turns against them later.

    However, would a gang keep these recordings? I mean it seems kind of risky to keep recordings of murder around, in case the police find them during a search in of the property in the future, so would they logically keep them?
     
  21. Gerald Bunch
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    Gerald Bunch Member

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    To answer your question, it would never be a street gang, because their rules are very strict about living in that particular area in order to run with them. They are all about "protecting" their hood, which means you must dwell in the area that they lay their heads. Otherwise, they will not and cannot trust you.
    When it comes to motor cycle clubs, they don't have rules about being confined to a certain area of the city. Usually they claim the whole city, or state. The motorcycle club hoses are broken down to certain cities, which means they can live anywhere they want in that city.
     
  22. Gerald Bunch
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    Gerald Bunch Member

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    Street gangs will do as such, but that are the ones that come in the gang as a soldier, a person with nothing to offer but their services, but I guarantee that if you are a person that generates money, which can help further the gang in purchasing weapons, drugs, etc., they will not being having that person do such an act. The best way to hurt a person that generates money is to hit them in their pocket, that's the real pain.
     
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  23. Gerald Bunch
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    Gerald Bunch Member

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    If you ask ten different gang members the same question, they will give you ten different answers.
     
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  24. KokoN
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    KokoN Active Member

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    I think what @Gerald Bunch is saying sounds accurate, but remember, this is fiction, so if you want, you can invent a totally new kind of gang. Just write with the idea that there is this new type of gang and how it formed, and make it clear to the readers that it's not a "normal" gang. The problem would be if you try to make it out to be realistic and the readers are thinking isn't normal. If it's not going to be normal, make it clear that it's not and explain why and how it came to be. Does that make sense? Maybe others will disagree with me on this point.
     
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  25. Gerald Bunch
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    Gerald Bunch Member

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