would you write a letter to a serial killer on death row?

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by poptarts, Mar 5, 2011.

  1. w176

    w176 Contributor Contributor

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    My point bringing it up wasn't that it was a major argument before or against death penalty, just an example that if you take a look at the hard facts there nothing about death penalty that is effective. It doesn't manage to archive anything positive.

    It not FFS not even cost effective.

    And when something just sucks in practice, and got no upsides I don't see why people bother to make an moral argument about it.
     
  2. Agreen

    Agreen Faceless Man Contributor

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    What value do we attach to the lives of those executed for crimes they did not commit? What is an acceptable percentage of innocent deaths, before capital punishment becomes unjustifiable?
     
  3. Sabreur

    Sabreur Contributor Contributor

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    Here comes the devil and his advocate.

    When a criminal commits a particularly heinous crime, sex-based offenses for example, they forfeit their own rights based on the fact that they forcibly violated another person's rights. While I do not agree with murder, I do not believe capital punishment to be state-sponsored murder. This doesn't mean I agree with it either, just that I can see where advocates for execution are coming from.

    Truthfully, I have to say I don't particularly know my position on this issue, so let me state that flat out. Vengeance, though cool when in stories, often seems a hollow motive to me in reality. However, I know that if someone strikes me, I will strike them back. I know that if someone harmed my family, I would harm them back. As you can see, it's a confusing issue even on a micro-level. On the macro-level (state or national level) it is undoubtedly complex.

    I'd have to say that I lean more in favor of the death penalty than anyone in this thread so far. I am a political and social liberal (social democrat; like the Labour party, so I'm told) and though I was raised Roman Catholic (Italian and Irish grandparents do that) I am probably more of an atheist than anything. So no, not the typical redneck Yank wishing to see "dem durn crimnulz FRY!" ;)
     
  4. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    I'll admit, I'm not 100% sure of my own opinion of the death penalty. But when it comes to opinions I'm never 100% sure on anything. I find it unwise to be so.

    Anthropologically speaking capital punishment makes a certain sense. And I don't like to think that humans are in anyway special and need other rules, unique only to us.
     
  5. Agreen

    Agreen Faceless Man Contributor

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    I think the problem is assuming the justice system gets it right, that the one being punished is in fact the perpetrator of the heinous crime. Because when a heinous crime is committed it's kind of a natural response to want it to be corrected, for the one who did it to suffer for what they've done. Whether this impulse is something of benefit in modern society... well, there's a whole lot of discussion on that above. I do oppose the death penalty on ethical grounds, but my main objection, as my post above would indicate, is the lack of certainty. Tens- perhaps hundreds- of thousands of innocent lives have been sacrificed on the altar of justice.
     
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  6. Eunoia

    Eunoia Contributor Contributor

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    When I was looking at volunteering options, one of them was this. Well, writing to prisoners so not necessarily on death row.

    Personally, I wouldn't. If they are on death row, then they've obviously done something unforgivable and I don't think it'd be right to write to them because in a way that's showing them sympathy and they don't deserve that.
     
  7. w176

    w176 Contributor Contributor

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    Hence I included the scientifically based fact that even trough people hold the cultural belief that vengeance will give them closure and peace of mind, it don't. Objective studies can confirm that in general, the victims family will be worse off (even if they believe vengeance will make them feel better) if the perpetrator actually is killed.

    Hence. It ineffective on the micro level also.
     
  8. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    ^ To be honest. I find hard facts overrule everything else. That's just the way I am, I don't trust personal feelings.
     
  9. Halcyon

    Halcyon Contributor Contributor

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    I would agree that someone found guilty of any such offence would forfeit certain rights, such as the right to freedom, but it's a pretty large jump to say that someone who has committed an assault (even a sexual assault, horrible though it is) has forfeited his (or her) right to life. I certainly don't agree with that.

    I also don't understand how capital punishment isn't murder. Surely the deliberate taking of someone's life, against that person's will, where it isn't in the heat of the moment, and where an alternative exists, is exactly that - murder. Your example about someone harming your family is flawed, because if you harm them back in a calculated manner, which is what you seem to be saying, then you are committing a crime, no matter how justified you feel. Therefore, by that logic, a State taking the life of someone who is a murderer in a similarly calculated manner is also committing a crime.

    It is, however, a very emotive, and often divisive, subject.
     
  10. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Taking away their 'right to freedom' then - just to throw this in - are they not then just waiting to die?
     
  11. Halcyon

    Halcyon Contributor Contributor

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    We're all just waiting to die, Lemex. But those who have committed serious crimes must have restrictions placed on how and where they can wait to die. That doesn't, IMO, justify bringing that wait forward, however.

    Indeed, there are notorious murderers in my native Scotland, such as Jimmy Boyle and Hugh Collins, who have demonstrated that rehabilitation can produce positive results, and who have written compellling books about their lives that can add to our understanding of how social deprivation in their upbringing was a factor in their turning to a life of violence and crime that led eventually to lives being taken. These guys have been released and have contributed to society, through charity work, through trying to influence young offenders etc.

    We miss these opportunities if we simply stick a needle in such people.
     
  12. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Fair enough.

    Hey, I'm from Scotland myself. High five.

    Again. Fair enough.

    Some people however, cannot be rehabilitation. But they are the exception that proves the rule I suppose.
     
  13. poptarts

    poptarts New Member

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    i've read about them, but most of them have been executed or killed by a fellow prisoner before i even know about them. which is why the discovery of this particular serial killer--a living, breathing human being who at one point has done something so atrocious--excites me to an extent.

    in this case he's definitely guilty (there was even a videotape or two that showed what he did). the thing with serial killers is there rarely is any doubt about whether or not they did it. it's usually about whether or not they were legally insane when they did.

    death penalty shouldn't be used as a punishment for criminals with minor crimes, and i'm even open to giving a one-time murderer a "second chance." when it comes to someone who has repeatedly killed other people, however, i don't see any point in keeping him (or her--although it's usually a him) alive. killing him off may not bring back the people he's killed, but along with giving some sort of peace to the friends/family of the victims, it at least eliminates the chance of more innocent people dying in his hands.

    the more "humane" alternative is said to be to send him off to life imprisonment, which in a way can be worse than death itself and may make a more fitting punishment than electrocution or lethal injection. while i'm actually an advocate for "an eye for an eye," for economic reason i'd rather that he be killed as soon as possible. taxpayers' dollars would be better spent elsewhere than on this sort of people.
     
  14. Unit7

    Unit7 Contributor Contributor

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    Of course this is assuming they are guilty in the first place. There have been people who have been found innocent on Death Row both after they were executed and before.

    Personally this is why I can never really support the Death Penalty until I know for fact that the person is not only guilty but has no remorse what so ever.

    Just because someone is in prison doesn't necessarily mean they are actually guilty.
     
  15. Agreen

    Agreen Faceless Man Contributor

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    The critical difference between life imprisonment and capital punishment is that if evidence arises which proves the accused is not guilty, in one case it is possible for them to be freed and awarded restitution for the injustice done to them. Short of the most potent necromancy, you can't undo an execution.
     
  16. Sabreur

    Sabreur Contributor Contributor

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    Maybe it just makes me feel better then. I would like to see the studies you mention though. No, a "quick google" is not a good source either. ;)
     
  17. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Same. To be honest. I've tried to look, though it wasn't much of an effort. I couldn't really find much.
     
  18. Halcyon

    Halcyon Contributor Contributor

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    I'm not a Roman Catholic, indeed I'm far more atheist than Christian, but I remember being impressed with the words of the leader of the Roman Catholic faith in Scotland, Cardinal Keith O'Brien, in the wake of the row over the early, compassionate release of the Libyan Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi, who was found guilty of the Lockerbie bombing. This led to a furious diplomatic row between Scotland and the USA, who clearly wanted the bomber either executed, or to rot in a cell until he died.

    "It is in the midst of such inhuman barbarism (shown by Megrahi] that we must act to affirm our own humanity. They may plunge to the depths of human conduct but we will not follow them."

    "I believe that only God can forgive and show ultimate compassion to those who commit terrible crimes and I would rather live in a country where justice is tempered by mercy than exist in one where vengeance and retribution are the norm."

    Other than the God references, I agree completely with the thrust of his words.
     
  19. Sabreur

    Sabreur Contributor Contributor

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    Why should we show mercy?
     
  20. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    DON'T!!!

    don't even let yourself continue thinking about doing it... and if you're a minor, for heaven's sake, talk this over with a parent or school counselor asap, as it's not healthy to consider doing something like this with an evilly-twisted person like that...

    there's 'healthy curiosity' and then there's the unhealthy kind... this is the latter, sweetieheart... so don't give in to it, ok?

    if you need someone 'neutral' to talk it over with, i'm a mom of 7 [6 girls] and grandmom of 19 [at last count] and you can drop me a line anytime...

    love and hugs, maia
    maia3maia@hotmail.com
     
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  21. w176

    w176 Contributor Contributor

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    You have to do some work then. I read in in a Swedish photo documentary book, made by a women and a journalist, travelling world over photographing death row cells and the death chambers. A good quality book so im pretty sure thier sources were good but can't help you find them.

    But i sure you can find the studies using Googles scientific article search
     
  22. Peerie Pict

    Peerie Pict Contributor Contributor

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    "Maybe it just makes me feel better then" is really pretty inconsequential on a societal level. In many walks of life blood lust and passion are curtailed by rationalisation. Why should the passion for revenge be allowed to reign unchecked?

    Halcyon is right about Biblical righteousness. It's no surprise really that capital punishment is popular in US states where religion is supreme.

    When I read law at university I took an honours course in Punishment & Society. We looked in depth at the nature of punishment, crime and prisons. One of the things that stuck me was the psychology of revenge and the roots of why we seek it. The idea of 'restoring balance' is just a smoke screen. The real reason we seek revenge is to strengthen social ties and to consolidate our feelings towards those who are 'wrong' and 'other' to the 'us as the majority. Someone else here said that the 'nation state' should serve the majority. This murder of convicts is just an aspect of that. When the state of Texas puts someone in the chair, the majority rejoice and 'bond' over what I would call the sacrificial lamb. I'm guessing many feel smugly satisfied that justice has been done? But then how many would flick the switch or inject the needle themselves.

    I'm not sure if I'm allowed to paste this. I found this study which kind of confirms what w176 and the rest of us are saying:

    "The revenge paradox
    Ask someone why they seek revenge, though, and they're likely to tell you their goal is catharsis, says Kevin Carlsmith, PhD, a social psychologist at Colgate University in Hamilton, N.Y. But exactly the opposite happens, according to a study he published in the May 2008 Journal of Personality and Social Psychology (Vol. 95, No. 6).
    In a series of experiments, he and his colleagues Daniel Gilbert, PhD, at Harvard, and Timothy Wilson, PhD, at the University of Virginia, set up a group investment game with students where if everyone cooperated, everyone would benefit equally. However, if someone refused to invest his or her money, that person would disproportionately benefit at the group's expense.
    Carlsmith planted a secret experimenter in each group and had them convince everyone to invest equally. But when it came time to put up the money, the plants defected. The free riders, as Carlsmith calls them, earned an average of $5.59, while the other players earned around $2.51.
    Then Carlsmith offered some groups a way to get back at the free rider: They could spend some of their own earnings to financially punish the group's defector.
    "Virtually everybody was angry over what happened to them," Carlsmith says, "and everyone given the opportunity [for revenge] took it."
    He then gave the students a survey to measure their feelings after the experiment. He also asked the groups who'd been allowed to punish the free rider to predict how they'd feel if they hadn't been allowed to, and he asked the non-punishing groups how they thought they'd feel if they had. In the feelings survey, the punishers reported feeling worse than the non-punishers, but predicted they would have felt even worse had they not been given the opportunity to punish. The non-punishers said they thought they would feel better if they'd had that opportunity for revenge—even though the survey identified them as the happier group. In other words, both groups thought revenge would be sweet, but their own reported feelings agreed more with MLK Jr. than with Exodus.
    The results suggest that, despite conventional wisdom, people—at least those with Westernized notions of revenge—are bad at predicting their emotional states following revenge, Carlsmith says. The reason revenge may stoke anger's flames may lie in our ruminations, he says. When we don't get revenge, we're able to trivialize the event, he says. We tell ourselves that because we didn't act on our vengeful feelings, it wasn't a big deal, so it's easier to forget it and move on. But when we do get revenge, we can no longer trivialize the situation. Instead, we think about it. A lot.
    "Rather than providing closure, it does the opposite: It keeps the wound open and fresh," he says.
    Revenge or justice?
    If revenge doesn't make us feel any better, why do we seek it? Carlsmith describes one evolutionary hypothesis, suggested by German psychologists Ernst Fehr, PhD, and Simon G¨echter, PhD.
    "Punishing others in this context—what they call 'altruistic punishment'—is a way to keep societies working smoothly," Carlsmith says. "You're willing to sacrifice your well-being in order to punish someone who misbehaved."
    And to get people to punish altruistically, they have to be fooled into it. Hence, evolution might have wired our minds to think that revenge will make us feel good."

    I think the idea that revenge keeps open a wound is really poignant. Have you ever been slighted and wrestled with your passion for revenge? The feeling of dented pride becomes so overwhelming that you do something underhand. You feel slightly elated but the feeling fades almost immediately. After your revenge you have to not only deal with the original slight, but the guilt of having sought out revenge and lowered yourself to their level. Everyone wants revenge. It's how we handle it that counts. Just because we have furious indignation, it doesn't mean the consequences of the indignation is ethical and 'right.'

    I think on a nation state level, at least you can take passion out of the equation. Governments and legal systems should be dispassionate and reasonable. It goes back to Halcyon's Cardinal O'Brien quote. I am an atheist also but I see the benefits for all of us in resisting lowering ourselves to the depths of terrorists and serial killers.

    Sorry for the long post.
     
  23. Speedy

    Speedy Contributor Contributor

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    To answer to question from the OP. If i had the time, i would.

    I don't see an issue with it to be honest.

    Now if i was a minor, hell no. but i'm not, so.
     
  24. Sabreur

    Sabreur Contributor Contributor

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    Don't act surprised but I agree with you.
     
  25. Peerie Pict

    Peerie Pict Contributor Contributor

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    ^Oh...

    *steps off soapbox and puts it away sheepishly*
     

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