Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Link the Writer
    Offline

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    11,210
    Likes Received:
    4,222
    Location:
    Alabama, USA

    Yet another attack in France?!

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Link the Writer, Jul 15, 2016.

    Apparently a truck driver plowed into a crowd in Nicé. According to French President Hollande, this attack was deliberate and an act of terrorism because it happened on July 14th, France's special, national day. As of now, 84 people are dead.

    What in the sweet hell!? :( My heart goes out to those who were injured and/ore killed.

    Sources:
    http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/14/europe/nice-truck-attack-live-blog/index.html
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36800730
    http://www.wsj.com/news/world/europe
     
    Oscar Leigh likes this.
  2. KaTrian
    Offline

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    5,566
    Likes Received:
    3,563
    Location:
    The Great Swamp
    Yeah, so it seems. :bigfrown: It's scary. I've been reading reports from Finnish tourists who're in the area and it really sounds and looks like a nightmare.

    I hope Europe will be able to stay united in our fight against radicalization and terrorism, but since we're tearing each other apart now for all kinds of reasons, who knows what will happen. Most likely this will fuel xenophobia as well as anti-Islam rhetoric in the social media and real life.:bigfrown:

    It's been a dark year so far. Istanbul, Baghdad, Nice, Orlando, Brussels, Paris... My heart goes out to the victims' families and the injured.
     
  3. Link the Writer
    Offline

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    11,210
    Likes Received:
    4,222
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    You're very right. What a horrid year for everyone. :(
     
  4. Aled James Taylor
    Offline

    Aled James Taylor Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2013
    Messages:
    784
    Likes Received:
    462
    Location:
    UK
    I hope people will realize the difference between being anti-Islam and anti-Muslim. Islam is an ideology we should seek to understand and oppose. Muslims are people who suffer more because of Islam than any other group and they deserve our understanding and respect.

    Attitudes to extremist religion seems much like someone waking up in the morning with a terrible hangover and thinking, 'I shouldn't have had that last drink.' They totally overlook the dozen drinks they had before the last one. Did those drinks not also have something to do with it?
     
  5. jannert
    Offline

    jannert Contributing Member Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2013
    Messages:
    7,788
    Likes Received:
    7,300
    Location:
    Scotland
    The trouble is, our xenophobia and anti-Islam rhetoric and reaction is exactly what these fanatics are apparently working to cause. The more the 'west' comes to hate Islam, the more righteous their cause of wiping out anybody in the world who isn't a fanatical Muslim (their variety) will look. It's a hard one to deal with.

    I know what we should not have done. We should never have been at war in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and now Syria. This has destabilised a whole region, and left wounds it will be very difficult to heal.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2016
  6. KaTrian
    Offline

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    5,566
    Likes Received:
    3,563
    Location:
    The Great Swamp
    Yes, of course. I worded it haphazardly. Although, to answer your question, most people probably won't think about the difference that much when they express their views eg. on FB.
     
    Aled James Taylor likes this.
  7. Ben414
    Offline

    Ben414 Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2013
    Messages:
    974
    Likes Received:
    785
    I hope you mean anti-radical Islam and anti-Muslim? Because having a strategy of opposing Islam in its entirety is awful.
     
  8. BayView
    Offline

    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    5,639
    Likes Received:
    5,117
    I think your sentiment is solid but your terminology is a bit off. Muslims are followers of Islam. Islam is the religion of Muslims. There's nothing wrong with Islam.

    There's something wrong with terrorists and extremists, yes. But "Islam" is not a synonym for "terrorists".
     
  9. Ben414
    Offline

    Ben414 Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2013
    Messages:
    974
    Likes Received:
    785
    Unfortunately, I think that he's taking the stance that Islam (and probably other religions too) inherently creates a system that justifies the marginalization of women, the marginalization of other religious groups, etc. I strongly disagree. I believe history proves that religion is malleable thing like any other belief system, and it doesn't have to include these elements.

    Focusing just on Islam for now, there are many Muslim women who wear the hijab or niqab for the sake of their own relationship to god--it's an expression they've decided to follow for themselves. The issue isn't that they've been raised to internalize sexism or that they haven't been exposed to feminism. I have a Muslim friend who didn't wear a hijab when she was a child growing up in the U.S., went to a very liberal college and picked up very progressive ideas, and then decided to wear a hijab when she got older because she wanted to. She's not doing it because men told her to, and she doesn't view it as marginalizing to herself. I'm not denying that it can be used that way, but that's far different from saying it inherently is that way. The fact that she wears a hijab and fasted during most of the daylight hours of June doesn't affect the fact that she supports gender equality, religious equality, LGBT rights, access to abortion and birth control, etc. She even studied sexual health in college! On a broader scale, there are many Muslim associations across the U.S. and the world that are just as progressive. They don't see an inherent conflict between following their religion and being progressive because there doesn't have to be one.

    Islam--like any other belief system--has the capacity to do bad. I'm not denying that. The difference is whether that system inherently creates a system that justifies those things, and there are many, many millions of people who empirically prove otherwise.
     
    Oswiecenie and jannert like this.
  10. BayView
    Offline

    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    5,639
    Likes Received:
    5,117
    Oooh, I hope he's not saying that... his support for Muslims suggested to me that it was just a terminology thing. It wouldn't make sense for someone to say "Christianity is an ideology we should seek to understand and oppose. Christians are people who suffer more because of Christianity than any other group and they deserve our understanding and respect."
     
  11. Ben414
    Offline

    Ben414 Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2013
    Messages:
    974
    Likes Received:
    785
    I'd rather you be right in this situation!
     
    BayView likes this.
  12. Link the Writer
    Offline

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    11,210
    Likes Received:
    4,222
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    Folks, folks, this from BBC.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36808020

    Apparently he was a resident from Nicé with no connection to any radical group of any kind. So perhaps this may have simply been the act of a mentally deranged man. It's still horrific, of course but from what I've gathered, he may not have been a terrorist despite what the French president says.

    To anyone from France or know someone from France, let me say this on behalf of the USA: I'm so, so sorry you've all suffered numerous attacks in one form or another recently. No one -- anywhere -- deserves that. Know that you are in my heart and my thoughts.
     
  13. BayView
    Offline

    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    5,639
    Likes Received:
    5,117
    His first name will be enough to cause the problem. Stupid, but I think true.
     
    Link the Writer likes this.
  14. Link the Writer
    Offline

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    11,210
    Likes Received:
    4,222
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    Oh.

    Crap.
     
  15. BayView
    Offline

    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    5,639
    Likes Received:
    5,117
    :(
     
  16. Aled James Taylor
    Offline

    Aled James Taylor Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2013
    Messages:
    784
    Likes Received:
    462
    Location:
    UK
    Islam, like many other religions can be pretty much anything you want it to be. You can follow its tenets strictly or live a mostly secular lifestyle and only pay lip-service to its traditions. Let’s not get hung-up on what is or is not ‘true Islam’. There is massive disagreement about this even amongst scholars so we stand no chance of resolving the issue. Instead, consider those who commit terrorist atrocities, killing many and often shouting ‘Allahu Akbar’. What is their motivation? No one gives their life for causes they don’t strongly believe in, so what do those people believe in strongly? You may think their beliefs mistaken, deluded and a misrepresentation of their supposed faith, and you may be right. But your interpretation, or mine, is not the relevant issue here. The relevant issue is their interpretation.


    It’s good that women in the US have the freedom to wear the hijab or niqab and the freedom not to wear them. Unfortunately, women living in Saudi Arabia have no such freedom. A woman’s interpretation of Islam is irrelevant there. If they don’t live in compliance with the religious laws, prison or even beheading can follow. In Muslim countries, sharia law is not optional, open to interpretation by the public or considered something only for Muslims. It’s believed to be universal morality for all people, no matter what their personal beliefs. Islam is considered the only true religion so other religions can be banned. You may have a different interpretation of Islam and alternative views of human rights but I think you’ll find if you live in Saudi Arabia, the religious police won’t give a shit what you think. This is why we need to oppose Islam. It’s not because of your interpretation or because of mine, it’s because of theirs.
     
  17. Aled James Taylor
    Offline

    Aled James Taylor Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2013
    Messages:
    784
    Likes Received:
    462
    Location:
    UK
    No one has been able to identify a theological difference between moderate-Islam and radical-Islam. These are not two different religions. (Moderates overlook the more violent parts of the Koran and use their own natural moral judgement to choose what to believe. Unfortunately there is no theological justification to do this.)

    In Christianity and Judaism when two verses of scripture seem to contradict each-other, it's up to the reader to choose which to follow. In Islam, there is no such choice. The principle of Abrogation comes into play. This basically means that the later verse overrules the earlier one. The principle of Abrogation means that the later more violent Jihad part of the Koran overrules the earlier more peaceful part.

    There is also the principle of 'taqiyya'. This is where a Muslim intentionally lies to a non-believer, typically in order to advance the cause of Islam. (So treat the claims of Muslims with suspicion.)

    If we want to oppose radical-Islam, we need to oppose Islam.
     
  18. Link the Writer
    Offline

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    11,210
    Likes Received:
    4,222
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    Funny, as I seem to recall passages from the Koran discussing how Muslims need to treat non-Muslims with the same respect they owe to each other, or else Allah would exact vengeance on them.

    In any event, can we please not derail this thread?
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2016
  19. Aled James Taylor
    Offline

    Aled James Taylor Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2013
    Messages:
    784
    Likes Received:
    462
    Location:
    UK
    I'm not saying there are no parts of the Koran that speak of tolerance. There are also parts that speak of killing unbelievers, and the principle of Abrogation means there is a strong theological justification for following the more violent command.

    Speculating about the possible motivations of the perpetrator of the attack in France is not derailing the thread.
     
  20. BayView
    Offline

    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    5,639
    Likes Received:
    5,117
    Women in France don't have the freedom to wear the hijab or niqab - a woman's interpretation of her own damn choices is irrelevant there. So let's not get too self-righteous about lack of freedom in Saudi Arabia.

    I think you should also find a way to better define "Muslim countries". You seem to be using it as a synonym for places ruled by Sharia law, but there are lots of countries with huge Muslim majorities that are secular states. Using Saudi Arabia as some sort of stand-in for all Muslim states is like using North Korea as an argument for why secular states should be abolished.

    About a quarter of the world's population is Muslim. There are obviously ways for Muslims to live in peace, because only a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of these Muslims are psychopathic mass murderers. Islam is well over a thousand years old; opposing it based on the events of the last twenty or so years makes so sense.

    Opposing all forms of Islam is a bad idea from a practical perspective, because the numbers are too vast for opposition to have any effect and because putting people under pressure makes them more likely to explode, not less. But it's also a bad idea from a moral perspective, because we have absolutely no right to judge someone for following a belief system that clearly has no direct link to terrorism.

    I'm an atheist, so I'd be perfectly happy if everyone would let their belief in imaginary bosses die away, but until that happens, I think Islam deserves the same respect as all other religions. We haven't declared war on Christianity because of the many atrocities committed in its name; we shouldn't declare war on Islam because of Nice, or anything else so completely unconnected to the vast majority of Muslims.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2016
  21. Aled James Taylor
    Offline

    Aled James Taylor Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2013
    Messages:
    784
    Likes Received:
    462
    Location:
    UK
    No direct link to terrorism? What religion do you think all these Islamic extremists belong to? Do you think they're Hindus? What religion does Islamic State promote? Is that Buddhism? What about the cartoonists who were murdered in Paris because of their depiction of the prophet Mohammad? Was Mohammad a Sikh by any chance?

    I'm not suggesting anyone be put under pressure but we should be concerned about the separation of mosque and state. We should be wary of imposing religious based laws on those who choose not to believe in that way. I believe accommodating the beliefs of others is a good thing, but that accommodation has limits and the human rights of people depend on those limits.

    (Applogies in advance for invoking Goodwind's) When we think of the philosophy of Hitler, we metaphorically point to the concentration camps and say, 'look how awful this is'. What we do not do is say: 'In his day, Hitler was very popular with many thousands, even millions of peace loving people who did not commit atrocities. It was only a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of his followers who did those things, so Hitler's philosophy must be good and wholesome (judging by the actions of the majority).' We don't use this type of argument for Hitler so why should we use it for Islam?

    If we want to judge if an ideology is good or not, we should not be swayed by the actions of those who pay only lip-service to it. We should ask; what would happen if someone put this into practice, fully, and without reservation. Saudi Arabia and Islamic State do implement the theology they believe in, and they call that theology Islam. Other countries don't do this as much, granted. But which example should we look to, if we want to know what Islam is like?
     
  22. BayView
    Offline

    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    5,639
    Likes Received:
    5,117
    You know what else they almost all have in common? They're almost all men. But that doesn't mean we should "oppose" all men, because we're not idiots and we can understand that just because some men are murderous psychopaths, that doesn't mean all men are murderous psychopaths. (And, honestly, in terms of logic, "What religion do you think all these Islamic extremists belong to" is a pretty ridiculous question. What religion do you think all the Christian extremists belong to? Ah HA!)

    I am 100% with you on this paragraph. Just like I agree with anyone who's concerned about the separation of church and state.

    You know what was part of Hitler's philosophy? Christianity. But as sophisticated adults, we are able to separate the psychopathic murdering Christians from the rest of the Christians. If there were a BILLION people who believed something Hitler believed, and people had been believing things he believed for thousands of years, and very, very, very few of these people were psychopathic murderers? Then when I started looking for causal factors in Hitler's particular brand of evil, I would dismiss those beliefs he had in common with a billion non-psychopathic murderers and focus in on what he has in common with other psychopathic murderers.

    Should we look at the extremists to know what Christianity is like, or what atheism is like? Or should we look at the vast majority of people who follow those belief systems?

    I mean, do you know any Muslims? You must, right? So, do you think they're brainwashed by an inherently violent religion? Have you seen anything in your interactions with your Muslim friends or acquaintances that would suggest they're predisposed to violence or hatred?
     
  23. Link the Writer
    Offline

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    11,210
    Likes Received:
    4,222
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    No offense, but please answer honestly: have you ever met a Muslim? I once took a class in World History and there were plenty of Muslims (from the Middle East, no less) who were actually decent folks who just wanted an education. I even helped them out a time or two by emailing my notes to them.

    Hating an entire religion because of a small minority would be like me hating black people because I got punched by a black kid in school once for the heinous crime of passing along behind him and just happened to brush up against his bookbag. Or me hating everyone from the UK because I was once cyber-bullied by an old British man on a history forum. Yes, there are assholes in all walks of life. They may also just so happen to be Muslim, black, or from the UK. But that doesn't make the entire group bad. The mentality of judging an entire group because of a small minority is what gets you people like Donald Trump.
     
    jannert likes this.
  24. Aled James Taylor
    Offline

    Aled James Taylor Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2013
    Messages:
    784
    Likes Received:
    462
    Location:
    UK
    The question 'What religion do you think all these Islamic extremists belong to?' is a ridiculous question I agree, and it does have only one logical answer. It's an conclusion you seem unable or unwilling to make.

    If you want to know what Christianity is like, considering an enthusiastic believer would give you a better idea than a 'hanger-on' who only occasionally attends church.

    If an ideology commanded that people be executed for particular 'crimes', would you judge that ideology by the actions of those who chose not to implement its commands or by the actions of those who do?

    The vast majority of Muslims (including the ones I know personally) do not take their religion all that seriously. They are not even enthusiasts let alone extremists. Many of these people believe, in theory, that the rightful punishment for apostasy is death, (because this is what they have been taught) but would not kill a family member who chooses not to believe (because their natural empathy would take priority). In contrast, the extremist would kill the family member, and that killing would have everything to do with Islam. The numbers don't matter, even if there is only one extremist for every ten million moderates. If the actions of an terrorist are motivated by his religious beliefs, those actions have everything to do with his religion. (And yes, that's another blatantly obvious logical statement.)
     
  25. Aled James Taylor
    Offline

    Aled James Taylor Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2013
    Messages:
    784
    Likes Received:
    462
    Location:
    UK
    What makes you think I hate all Muslims or even any Muslims? My first post in this thread emphasises the distinction between Muslims and Islam. As you say, many (even most) Muslims just want much the same in life as the rest of us, education, a good job, nice house to live in, family etc.(including the ones I know personally). These are people who don't take their religion all that seriously. The ones who do take it seriously are those who insist school canteens shouldn't serve pork and all women should cover their heads because to do otherwise would be immoral. To the religious, there are only two ways in life, God's way and the wrong way. They may preach tolerance and understanding when they are the ones who would benefit from that but when they are in charge, God's way (as they perceive it) takes priority.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page