Jonathan Pageau explains the esoteric view of Heaven

By Xoic · Aug 22, 2022 · ·
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  1. This is the stuff I've been going on and on about, only he explains it much better!


    He's an orthodox Christian. The orthodox religions are very esoteric in their outlook.

    Heaven in the esoteric estimation is the world of pure abstraction. It's the same thing Plato was referring to with his world of perfect forms. Pure thought, pure idea. The invisible things, that have no physical mass.
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    Dave The Great likes this.

Comments

  1. Dave The Great
    Got to 10 minutes. Seems like he's just defining the workings of a fictional world, the same way an author justifies his or hers system of magic, or weather. It makes sense within their world, and I can believe and research and convince myself but it's ridiculous in the realm I inhabit. My view has evidence as well, with every faith in which their rituals and beliefs seem nonsensical to you. I asked a Christian about their view of paganism, and he responded that it was ridiculous.

    Though a darker thought breaks through all of that, and maybe it is my fear of this truth being true that fuels my skepticism. What diety could possibly be benevolent that plays unnecessary games of suffering on its creations? Better no God than a God like that. I can sleep better.
  2. Xoic
    The biggest problem in trying to understand the Bible today is that it was created in a very different time, when materialism was not the ruling paradigm. When we hear about the creation of the world, we automatically go straight to the idea of physical objects coming into existence. Most of us can't even conceive of it meaning anything else, because we've always lived in a materialist worldview. We take it for granted, and we believe everyone else takes it for granted, at all times and in all places. But there was nothing like a materialist worldview in the ancient world. Science didn't exist yet. The world and everything in it were understood in a very different way.

    I just stumbled across a set of books by an author named John Walton called The Lost World series, referring to the fact that the ancient world is largely lost to us today, because it operated under very different assumptions than the ones we operate under today.

    Here's one of the books: The Lost World of Genesis One: Ancient Cosmology and the Origins Debate

    That link will open the Read Inside. If you read through it, including the section at the end of the book, it gives a good breakdown of what the book is about. Walton has studied the ancient Hebrew world in great depth, and has discovered a few things that change the game considerably. One of the biggest is that the word usually translated as Creation actually didn't refer to a physical bringing-into-being, but rather bringing-into-being in a functional sense. Existence in Biblical times didn't refer to the physical existence of an object, but it's function in a system.

    As an example, when we talk about something existing, we're referring usually to its objective, physical existence. Like a chair for instance. But we do have another meaning for existence, like for the existence of a corporation. Does it mean a building? A group of people? In some sense those things are a part of a corporation, but they're not the entirety of it. It's much more nebulous or non-physical. It exists in legal terms because certain documents were filed, certain I's dotted and T's crossed and the right signatures placed on the right lines. And not because of the physical documents or the actual ink or graphite atoms used in the signatures. It's more like a system of ideas that everyone accepts as legally binding.

    Well, that's enough for my mangled attempt to explain it. For anyone interested, click on through and read the sample for yourself. At the end of the book there's a synopsis of his major points that's very helpful. The ancients didn't think of the sun as a ball of fire around which the Earth rotated. They had no ideas at all about evolution or biology, and they didn't think in material terms. That wouldn't be possible for a few millennia.

    Genesis was not about the creation of the physical Earth, it was about the dawning of conscious awareness. Let There Be Light didn't refer to actual light, but to awareness/understanding. Consciousness. From what I was able to read, it sounds like he's saying the material creation of the Earth and of humans and animals etc would have happened long before what's described in Genesis.
      Mogador and Dave The Great like this.
  3. Louanne Learning
    I'd just like to reply to a couple of things you wrote.

    "But there was nothing like a materialist worldview in the ancient world."

    Materialism, interchangeable with physicalism, is as old as philosophy. Democritus (circa 460-370 BCE) and Epicurus (341-270 BCE) taught that nothing existed except atoms and the void in which they moved.

    The Stoics were physicalists. They believed that the soul was a refined form of matter. Paul Harrison, in Elements of Pantheism: A Spirituality of Nature and the Universe, calls Zeno of Citium, the founder of Stoicism, a physicalist, and quotes him as saying, "Only a body is capable of acting or being acted upon."

    (Side note of interest: Zeno taught in the Athenian market place, in a colonnade known as the Stoa Poikile, which gave the movement its name.)

    "They had no idea at all about evolution or biology."

    Certainly, they did not understand the mechanisms of change, but they recognized that we live in a dynamic reality ever changing and evolving. As Heraclitus (circa 500 BCE) said, "The only thing that is constant is change."
      Mogador likes this.
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