Penguin Random House

this thread is making a tornado out of a barely perceptible breeze... doesn't bear wasting any more time or site space on, imo... wish someone would close it and put the poor thing out of its misery...

 

No one's making you read it. It's easy enough to skip the threads that are of no interest to you. If others find the discussion worthy, why not allow them to discuss it?

 

I agree. The point has already been made, and the only sound to be heard now is soapboxes being hammered together.

 

Copied and pasted - full story with views and replies here
http://io9.com/5954949/what-would-a-random-housepenguin-merger-mean-for-science-fiction-and-fantasy

Just wondering what you guys think of the biggest publisher in the world now and its ramifications for writers
*(This article was written before todays announcement)

The latest shockwave to hit the publishing world is the news that Random House and Penguin could be merged by their respective parent companies. Instead of having the Big Six publishing companies, we could be down to the Big Five. What will this lead to (apart from John Scalzi's joke that we could get a company called Random Penguin)? And what would this mean for science fiction and fantasy?

Currently, Random House owns Del Rey and Spectra — the latter imprint already having been somewhat decimated by layoffs a few years ago. Meanwhile, Penguin owns Ace and Roc — which were originally parts of totally separate companies, until Penguin merged with the Putnam Berkley Group in 1996.

Actually, the experience of Ace and Roc is a good barometer for what you'd expect to happen if the Penguin/Random House merger goes through. Ace, Roc, Del Rey and Spectra would all be parts of the same publishing empire — and for a while, at least, they might keep their own staffs and identities. But not forever. As Ace/Roc editor Anne Sowards explained in a 2007 interview with Dear Author:


Until 2003, Ace and Roc were separate editorially and the difference between the two was a matter of editorial taste. But towards the end of 2003, the editor who ran Roc left to pursue her own writing, and the editor in chief of Ace was put in charge of both lines. Subsequently, the science fiction and fantasy editors, whether they are a part of Berkley or NAL / Signet, work on both Ace and Roc titles.

So in the case of Ace and Roc, it took about seven years from the Penguin/Putnam merger to the imprints coming under a single editorial regime. And when HarperCollins acquired the William Morrow and Avon book lines from Hearst, it immediately merged its HarperPrism and Avon Eos imprints into one line, called Eos. (And now called Harper Voyager.)

On the other hand, this article from 2000 about the state of science fiction from Publishers Weekly — after the last wave of mergers — is full of quotes from publishing insiders saying that these mergers only strengthen science fiction imprints, in part because a merged sales force has an easier time knowing what's going on in the market.

What does that mean to aspiring authors and people who just love to read? Presumably, if imprints do merge or come under a single editorial management, that means eventually you have somewhat fewer approaches to the fields of science fiction and fantasy — at least, within mainstream publishing. You're less likely to be able to say that Ace/Roc does one sort of book, while Del Rey does another — although, of course, even within imprints different editors often buy different things. A merger also might make it fractionally harder for new authors to break in, since they might have one less address to send manuscripts to. And with self-publishing becoming more and more attractive an option, it's not a great time for traditional publishers to become even more monolithic and unwelcoming.

Still, it's early — and it's really hard to speculate about a merger that's just been announced as a possibility and may not actually happen in the end.

 

Don't know about the industry ramifications, but I LOVE the term "random penguin" - ah, the possibilities!

 

So, maybe the trad pub rules are changing.

Many times people have said don't put stuff on the web if you want a traditional publisher to buy it.

Apparently, if your work is good enough (or is interesting enough), this may not be the case any more.

S.U. Pacat has announced that her web serial The Captive Prince has been bought by Penguin (you can read her announcement here: http://freece.livejournal.com/61483.html).

Apparently, it will be released in paperback form (not just ebooks).

Is the game changing?

 

How many followers does she have? If she has been quite successful on her own, then I can see traditional publisher wanting to cash in on the act!

 

All I have to say is that the literary agent representing this author is really, really good at negotiating.

 

It's not unheard of - same goes for publishers picking up books that have been previously published by another company or self-published. It happens. Not often - that's why it makes the news - but it happens.

 

Or traditional publishers are realising that their stuck-up, turn everything down, superiority complexes are biting their own asses, that new authors, saving themselves the bother of perfect QLs and MSs and even then a pile of rejection letters, would rather paddle their own canoe.

Good luck to SU Pacat and everyone else who sticks up a finger or two to traditional publishers.

 

Agreed. Good, bad, or indifferent, the industry has no choice but to make peace with this new venue and its dynamics because it's not going away.

 

Wow. Guess we know who you've been listening to...

 

quoi?

 

Well, either you've been listening to those embittered authors who got their Golden Words of Glory turned down by trade publishers - or you are one of those authors. Because those are basically the only times I hear that kind of vitriol toward trade publishers. It's akin to those who say self-publishers are losers whose work isn't good enough to get a contract. There's plenty of room for both publishing routes without sniping and pettiness.

 

there are exceptions to any 'rule'... in this case, the exceptions are so rare it makes no sense to count on being one and minimizing your chances of being published instead of maximizing them...

 

Actually Shadow Walker, my thoughts come from views shared here on this forum towards new writers approaching trad publishers and agents especially when defended to the hilt by published writers.

For the record, I don't know anybody, or read remarks from, unpublished writers bitter from their experiences with publishing houses so maybe I am allowed my own personal view on the matter without having to rely on others?

 

You're certainly entitled to your own view - just as I am entitled to mine. And I can only repeat - There's plenty of room for both publishing routes without sniping and pettiness. Which one chooses shouldn't be based on vitriol or misconceptions, however. It should be based on facts and from there, which route works best for that author and that book.

 

It's hardly unheard of - it's quite common practice. You have to be selling rather well though on your own for a trad publisher to wanna nab you, and by that time you might not want it anymore lol. Although it's true, getting this lucky is like winning the jackpot - I'd still say only self-pub if that's the route you actually wanna take, and see the trad publisher as a bonus, and not the "real thing you were hoping for by self-pubbing first".

 

OK time to tear that statement to shreds

Indeed I am entitled to my view and no one said you're not.
I agree there is room for both publishing routes.
Snipe maybe but pettiness?
Vitriol and misconceptions, if you are accusing my response has either please give examples.
I'm all for whatever works best for the individual - the publisher will always do well because the house always wins.

 

It's definitely becoming more common. My blog was picked up by a trad publisher in 2008 and even then, there were at least 3 others on that platform who also published with the same people. It's just good business sense, '50 Shades" started as free fanfic and went on to sell millions of copies. It just goes to show that if you know how to write, no effort is wasted.

 

If it's common practice, why does it make news? Not unheard of, no - but when it stops making news, then it will be common.

 

"their stuck-up, turn everything down, superiority complexes are biting their own asses, that new authors, saving themselves the bother of perfect QLs and MSs and even then a pile of rejection letters, would rather paddle their own canoe."

The first part pretty well satisfies snipe, pettiness, and vitriol - the second implies new authors prefer to self-publish (misconception on two fronts, actually - the second being that trade publishers need all the new authors that want to be published.).

 

Shadowwalker, when I write something I feel strongly about I don't 'imply' anything - I come straight out and say it, rightly or wrongly and stand by my convictions.

And if the only thing you can come back with me on is the missing word "some" as in, that some new authors, saving themselves the bother of perfect QLs and MSs and even then a pile of rejection letters, would rather paddle their own canoe, then you should probably recant.

We had a case here recently where a writer had sent her QL and MS etc to multiple publishers and she wasn't happy when all she got back was the standard thanks but no thanks. She was, in my opinion, quite rightly irked that not one submissions editor could be bothered saying where she went wrong. She doesn't know if she screwed up her QL and her MS or chapter sample was even opened so how does she rectify things?

This is the case of saving themselves the bother and paddling their own canoe. I am happy that publishing houses are losing that snobbery and are changing with the times, that they are recognising their alienation of a lot of good writers and are starting to bend.

 

Hi.

I think what we're seeing her is an example of not so much the market changing as the entire industry. Yes these days I would expect agents and publishers both to be trawling through the lists of self pubbed works looking for their next author. It's simply good business. Of course that doesn't mean they won't be looking at people who come at them through the traditional channels, i.e. submissions etc. And it doesn't mean that every self pubbed author has any great chance of getting a deal. But look at it this way. If you're an agent / publisher your goal is to make money. Leave all the other BS behind it's about the money. And you want to be able to produce books that will sell. Ignoring the self pubbers would be limiting their potential chance of getting a top seller.

So what they'll be looking for in my view, would be works / authors who sell reasonably but haven't hit that top tier. Those who don't sell well, i.e. most of us, are on a footing with those who submit through the traditional way. Maybe even a little worse off. We've already got a track record and it isn't lucritive. Although at the same time we've proven we can write a book. Those who have hit that top tier self pubbing also aren't going to get contracts in most cases. The reason being that they probably won't want them anyway and besides there's little extra value an agent / publisher could offer. So the price of buying such an author would be too high for the return. That doesn't mean there won't be exceptions of course and fifty shades is one of them.

My thought is try the trade route first if that's your dream. If it's not and you think you can turn out a quality product without the need for external auditors, cover designers, marketers etc, then self pub. But don't imagine that either option is necessarily the way it's going to be for the rest of your writing career. That's one of the glorious things about this new digital age of publishing. Things change.

Cheers, Greg.

 

It isn't a publisher's job to explain why a ms isn't suitable for their list, but if they think the writer shows promise, it's not unheard of for them to add a note of encouragement to a rejection slip,
but why should they be expected to trawl through what is probably a large pile of unsuitable manuscripts and then take the time to explain their decision to someone who would most likely reject
the rejection?